Late V6 24v Spheres, Replacement not an option

Hi All,

Judging by all the classic symptoms, the spheres need regassing or replacing on the V6. Having had excellent service from a full set of new spheres on the 2.0l I decided not to mess about and just replace the lot. This has turned in to be somwhat of a nightmare. After consulting the micro fiche it turns out that the four corner spheres are unique to the ES9J V6's. The accumulator, anti-sink and the two center spheres are standard saloon items.

Having tried the usual scource, GSF don't stock them, can't get them. I eventually stumbled across a company 'bypartsby' flashy website, usual claims pattern parts by oem suppliers etc. What surprised my was they listed the front spheres for my model, but reccomended that standard saloons would be fine for the rear. With a pending 1000 mile holiday to Wales looming. I took the plunge for the whole lot, especialy as the regulator is cutting in and out at 15 second intervals.

Alarm bells should have started ringing when the email receipt came back from a company called Autospares ( see link http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=734 ) The spheres never arrived before the holiday, so we had to put up with a very bumpy tour round Wales. When I got back, no spheres. I phoned up Autospares, who said they were having difficulty getting some of the spheres, no prizes for guessing which ones! They eventualy agreed to send what they had already so I could do some of the work. Well guess what, a right mixed bag of regassed rubbish arrived. To be fair, the anti-sink and rear center spheres were Tecnosir Items, which I used on the 2.0l with the normal blank filling plug, but the center sphere actually has a wodge of dry mud in the threaded end. The two rear corner spheres, along with the accumulator are a joke. They have awful ugly looking long 'plugs' screwed in to the ends. The plugs have been badly stamped with the pressure, correct for the spheres application. However the valve orifices are compleatly wrong. One is stamped 0.5 and one 0.2 I checked them with a wire gauge and that is their size. They should be 0.7 for standard saloon or 0.6 for the V6. The accumulator looks like it was taken off the donor car with a cold chisel and touched up with a grinder before painting. Needless to say, after the pointless wait the spheres are going back.

This leaves me with one alternative, Recharge. Gas isn't a problem, as we have a large number of air handling units at work, so we also have a tame aircon engineer who always has a cylinder on his van. I was looking at Noz's recharging set up and have access to the tools to build it.

However, the rear spheres have been refilled before. They are fitted with a realy neat fitting with a green dust cap on. Closer inspection revealed a name "Valprex". A bit of digging on the net revealed that they are in fact made by Tecnosir along with the filling hose and a tool for removing the plug, here's their website

http://www.tecnosir.com/english/index_eng.html
does anybody know an outlet in the UK where these fittings and hoses can be bought?

Ian

Hi Masterclock

I have found Paul Johnson at the Citroen Centre, Oxford a reliable source of new, branded XM spheres at reasonable prices. He has some ads on the autotrader web site at present if you need his phone number.

Regards

XMexc

Hi Ian,

sorry I can't help in your essential question but only express my compassion for being treated like shit from buypartsby, they really sell rubbish in all respects and the worse is that basically until you get them home you are not really aware that you paid for such a thing. Selling old recharged spheres without telling you might fall in the comemrcail law but selling you spheres with totally wrong orifices could even be related to criminal law.

George

Hi Masterclock,

Maybe we need a rogues gallery section so that other people don't have to repeat your pain.

You know, I've heard about the principle of recharging through a one way valve from the refrigeration industry and indeed I saw the Westroen guy doing it at the Scottish CCC meet several years ago. Dealing with refrigeration in connection with my job (HVAC et al) I have always found it strange that the fridge industry makes a non-return valve suitable for the pressure range found in hydraulic Citroens. I don't think even R134A goes up to 70Bar. (I'll need to check some PH charts tomorrow in case I make a fool of myself). If that's the case then either these valves are made specially for the pressure in hand or they are just relying on the safety margin designed into the valve when using it for something for which it was not designed.

Sorry I don't know of a source but there must be one. I have met two different garages which had the kit so they must have bought it somewhere.

I'll let you know if I find out.

Cheers

noz

Hi all

I rechecked the AL-Ko site

http://www.al-ko.es/pdf/turismo/marcas/citroenesferas.pdf

for the specs. As I recall, this make is available from Auto Equipe Piece in Rutherglen - you may already have tried them but I thought I would mention it.

JohnM

Thanks for all the support so far guys.

Autoparts, or buypartsby or Sutton or what ever they are calling themselves have agreed to take the parts back for a full refund. The guy I spoke to said 'funny, we have never had this problem before' but then went on to say, 'there is no point in sending out another pair as you may well end up with the same situation' uhh!!. I tried to explain the three important parameters, volume, orifice and pressure, but he admitted that he knew absolutly nothing about Citroen suspension and couldn't understand what I was trying to explain.

These valprex connectors look, at first glance, like refrigeration connectors. They are roughly about the same diameter, have the same groove around the outside. The groove, however, is just for the green rubber dust cap to push on to. When the cap is removed there is an allen grub screw with a rubber seal in the end screwed in to the housing. Behind that I can see what looks like a 1/4" stainless ball bearing, not the usual schrader core found in A/C couplings. I have writen to Tecnosir to see if they will forward me a list of UK stockists. A search on the web brings up a website for Citispares as stockists, so I have writen to them as well.

I had never come across the AL-KO brand before, but they also fully list the spheres particular to the ES9J V6. I've never heard of Auto Equip Pieces before, but found a contact number and will give them a call tomorrow, though I'm a bit more reluctant to belive glossy parts lists now.

I must admit, I like the idea of the recharge valve, as once fitted the system can be pressure checked and topped up at will without removing the spheres again.
I'll keep you posted as to what turns up.

As an aside, Noz, as there are a few members on here with 98< V6's I wondered if it was possible to create a new folder to outline some not so obvious differences when ordering parts. Things like the brakes, These cars have larger diameter disks and pads than other models, but it is frightening the amount of parts catalogues and accesory dealers that list the same part number for all models. made worse by the fact that things like the rear brake pads are the same back plate with a different shaped pad moulded on. The standard pad will just slip in to the calipers, but will cause a serious degradation of braking performance.?

Hi Ian,

Your wish is my command. However, the pressure is now on for you to fill this particular section. Best of luck.

http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showforum=17

Cheers

noz

This list from AL-KO reinforces my hypothesis that the XMs have been fitted with various spehres combination through the years, exactly as the BuyPratsBy list showed, and then that the practice of GSF selling a singular sphere combination for e.g. all "V6s, 2.1td and 2.5td from '89 to '98" is just not right. My V6 appears to have been fitted with 3 or 4 sphere combination within those years. I'm currently investigating why my '94 car is so not-soft with a full set of new spheres from GSF and if all other possibilities are excluded, this will have to be it.
George

One thing I would look at after my experiance with Buyparts, or Autospares, or Sutton Auto Factors, or which ever name they go by this week, Is manufacture date. Two of the spheres sent by them had a recharge date printed on them. 2000 and 2001 no less. Needless to say, they have all been returned.

My search for a regassing tool has been more fruitful. I contacted Tecnosir, in Italy, about the availability of the recharging kit in the UK. They pointed me in the direction of their UK agents, GSF. I spoke to GSF, yes they stock the Valprex valves, part number N98711 at £4.50 each, but couldn't/ wouldn't supply the charging kit. Contact Citroen they said, its the tool that the dealers use, its in the special tools catalogue.

I phoned my local Citroen garage and they came back with a price. Hold on to your hat, £750 plus vat. I looked at the picture of the kit on Tecnosir's web site and thought no way.

I wrote back to Tecnosir explaining the situation and asked if they could supply the kit direct from Italy, and the answer was yes. They came back with a full quote, the prices are below.

They do two types of filling kit. The full spec one has a bottle fitting with contents gauge, a long length of hose, the controller that allows admission and release of gas to or from the sphere with its own sphere pressure gauge and then the fitting which connects to the valprex valves. The second cheaper version just has a bottle fitting with restictor jet inside and sphere pressure gauge, a length of hose and the Valprex fitting. The second one just uses the bottle valve to control filling.

Prices?

I've added 20% for Italy's vat and converted from euro's

C 720 Recharge tool £191.64
C 720SIM recharge tool £108.32
C 850 removal key (for the old Plug) £33.33
Five pack of 9mm Valprex Valves £16.66

Sim for Simple tool

That makes the full set of tools, if the simple recharger is bought, and postage £187. Or the same price as eight spheres from autospares, BEFORE the postage is added.

The beauty of this system is once fitted, and two my existing spheres already are, ther is no need to remove them from the car again. The pressure can be checked in situ and topped up if neccecery

Ian

Hi Masterclock

An individual is not going to need to use this set up that often.
The potential is that with a few members about the country with sets a lot of members cars/spheres could get sorted and the cost of the gear easily recovered.

Thank you for shareing all your research with us.

Regards

XMexc