A couple of friends tell me to try the citizens advice bureau....

G

CAB should be able to advise yes, but I believe Trading Standards would also help if you argue that either the work / service wasn't up to standard, or the charges were inconsistent.

Ciarán

If the bill was paid it makes it more difficult to obtain redress. With hindsight given the info you now have, you should have offered a reasonable amount based on the standard time for the job plus extras x the firm's hourly rate and sent them a letter and cheque if they refused to compromise. That way you have a record of your reasonable offer and it places the onus on them to either accept, chase you for the balance or negotiate.

Robert.

Hi Robert

Not paid yet so all this will happen on Monday, face-to-face. Altough I thought of the letter-cheque idea.

Thinking of offering to pay 6 hours when I was budgeting 5 max "bec they can be slow"...

People in other fora tell me even the Cit time is too much, they've done it in 2h30mins and this is amateurs at home!

Will let you all know. Still have to hear their view but can't think of a way it'd go to 9h -replacing a DIRAVI steering rack takes 12h and you have to undo half the front of the car to achieve this!-.

George

2hr 30m would be possible if you knew exactly what you were doing and nothing went wrong, such as seized bolts, weeping heater pipes, lost o rings. I reckon the hardest part of the job is the R&R of the intake manifold - that little pre-heater hose under the manifold is a right mongrel to remove and replace.

Hi all!

Well, went today to garage and spoke to owner. It was a civilised 20min chat as I was hoping it'd be.

He maintains:

1. that the Citroen Manual quoted time (3h18min) refers to changing only the external bit of a water pump, not the whole pump like done in my case. [The single difference over the job between the 2 versions is the additional need to remove the inlet manifold (unplug 6 injector plugs, a couple of sensor plugs, and undo 4 bolts). In my case they also had to separate the throttle inlet bit from the main manifold body as 2 little cooling pipes that go in the former wouldn't come off safely. I knew they'd done that -this was the only unexpected difficulty of the job they'd told me of before I argue over labour charges-. What I didn't know is that it allegedly took them *1h30mins* to undo the 4 bolts this is held with!!!]

2. that in reality it took them *15 hours* to do it, but they only charged me 9.

My information from another Citroen indy I'm speaking with (the person that supplied me with the "new" water pump) is that the job as they did it is around 4 hours, and maximum 6-7 hours if you include tea-banter-etc-etc.

Further, even if the Citroen-timing is as my indy says, it still is 3h18min and there's a huge distance between that and 9 hours. Removing the manifold can't take so long -the rest of items in need of removal are absolutely the same items-. So, essentialy, finding out that Cit quotes 3h18m for the "easy" job version doens't prove my garage right. It could only prove that they've been "very slow" instead of "outrageously slow"...

So, would anybody know the precise job the Citroen manual refers to? John?

I could pop in the Cit dealer I use for spares and ask but I doubt they'd know this detail!! But I will, if writen confirmation is required.

From his side, the owner said he'll have a chat with the mechanic that did the job. Of course that doesn't mean much to me as they could come up with whatever -although I do trust them-. As I said to the boss, the problem is not that I don't believe what they say, but that the job was done extremely slowly and that it's not the customer that has to pay for this.

I clearly said I'd go to Small Claims/Trading Standards/etc if agreement was not reached, and this is what I intend doing indeed. I already wrote to trading standards.

Any thoughts guys?

cheers
George

Hi George

Book says that the time is for the job complete with the engine in the car (gives a time of 24 minutes with engine out for other work). The only rider is a general one that the car must be properly maintained.

John

Thanks John.

Looks like I'll have to go to Cit to try to find out what they mean by "job complete" -will let you know here-.

Keep thoughts coming in!

cheers
G

just read this post and was horrified i just checked the time on my system and checked previous waterpump jobs on the 12v v6 and i would have quoted £175.00 +vat max for this job,
seems like a visit to the cab/trading standards is in order
I have so many customers coming to me atm after being billed 3 of 4 times what is realistic for work carried out,
Must be a sign of the times

Thanks Mick

You see, my indy insists that the manifold-out part makes a lot of difference in the job time, and this is why it took them so long. All evidence I have gathered, and plain common sense, show that this is not quite the case.

cheers
George

Hi George glad to have been of help to you
we have a lot of trouble with (forgive me for swearing) v6 jaguars at 100,000 miles plus with full dealer servicing coming to us running rough and all it is is the plugs have never been changed because you have to remove the inlet manifold to get to them and it is a 3 hour job and we have had instances of even oil and air filters not being changed and they are charging upwards of £700.00 for these services

regards
Mick

Hi all

Was looking again the Citroen Service Invoicing document (attached earlier) tonight and its clear that code 0531 0910 (not 0530 0910) cannot be but refering to a full manifold-out operation (just noticed that 0531 is the code of the "interior" bit of the pump which can't go out without the manifold being out). So this job is estimated at caw380 - almost 4 hours. Think proof is crystal-clear now!

In the meanwhile, John has very kindly sent me the english document so will be able to argument somewhat more coveniently with my indy rather than having a German document full of my notes do to cope with! Thansk again John!

cheers
G