Hello all from the far side of the world,

I thought I would share my tale of woe with you. About six weeks ago I sent my S2 2.1TD in to have the cambelt changed. As the diesel pump was leaking (thanks to recent government legislated changes in our diesel fuel) I had the mechanic remove the fuel pump so that I could take to a specialist to be overhauled. I also had the injectors serviced.

A week later I received the pump and injectors back and returned them to my mechanic who had fitted the new cambelt etc. He rang me the next day to say that the pump started leaking as soon as he tried to start the engine – so he summoned the pump specialist – who then removed the pump and returned it a couple of weeks later – apparently remedied – and refitted it. They insisted on removing and refitting it to avoid having to pay the mechanic for the extra time.

Problem now is the car won’t start. The mechanic says he has done everything correctly, and that the problem must be with something the pump guys have done. The pump people say the pump is fine so it must be something the mechanic has done.

I have faith in the mechanic as we have used him for years and his work has always been first rate. The pump guys come with a good reputation as well. As you can imagine this is very frustrating and my patience has worn thin. The mechanic explained that he has even sprayed ether? into it but without results, and fuel is getting to the injectors. He also tells me that he is absolutely confident that he has everything associated with the cambelt lined up correctly.

Any thoughts? Has anyone had a similar experience?

Regards,
Kiwi

Hi Kiwi

If it wont fire up on ether, there must be something amiss. Either it has no compression or the ether isn't reaching the cylinders for some reason. If the valve timing was out you would hear the clatter or by now would have no compression at all due to the rockers having broken. Or, do you mean it fires up on ether but wont run, in which case if there is fuel reaching the injectors, the pump timing must be out which could be as a result belt having being fitted incorrectly or the pump being set up wrongly. I would suggest you remove one injector and connect it to the pipe externally to see if it is actually 'injecting'. but keep out of the way of the spray, it can go through your skin! If its injecting OK check the position of the piston when the spray breaks, it should be near the top, ascending, you can do this by poking a scrwdriver down the injector hole.

I wish you all the best with that one.

Peter.N.

Hi Kiwi,

I can understand your frustration. Here are a few pointers in no particular order:

Timing
Obviously the pump has to be refitted to the car in a particular way and the crank, the cam and the pump all lined up before putting the belt back on. Although not rocket-science it does have to be correct. Your indy sounds like he knows what he's doing but its a hard judgement to make. Maybe you could ask him to demonstrate that all the timing marks line up? Valve timing is equally important as injection pump timing. Apparently the rubber drive on the crank pulley can disintegrate and give you false timing information. Does the timing mark on the pulley align with the Top Dead Centre position?

Electrical Solenoid Stop
There's a solenoid on the pump which shuts off the diesel when the ignition is switched off. Has the solenoid been refitted to the pump. Does it have an electrical cable going to it? Is there power going to the solenoid? Has someone blown a fuse for that circuit by allowing the loose wire to touch a metal surface? Does it click when the ignition is turned on?

Air in the fuel line
Obviously when the pump was removed all the fuel lines were disconnected. When they were reconnected did someone prime the circuit by hand to chase all the air out of the system? Does the 2.1 have a manual priming pump? Has the air been chased all the way through to slackened connectors on the injectors?

Pump Pressure
Is the pump producing pressure at the injectors? Slacken one of the pipes off say, to the first injector, but not completely, maybe 1 or 2 turns.. Crank the engine over and look for diesel spraying out of the loose connection (glasses should be worn for this exercise, otherwise quite safe.)

Hope that sttarts you down the path of discovery at least.

Please don't hesitate to get back if you ned more help.

cheers

noz

2.1 TD non-starter.
I have had a case when several people had been in the upper engine area, and the multi-pin connector which is hidden uner the LHM tank was dislodged enough to resist the paassage of a current. Many of these connectors had a yellow (thick) wire soldered from one side of the connector to the other to overcome theis possibility. This was often done by the dealer.

I have also had a "failure to start" because the heavy (yellow) cable to the underside of the black box in front of the battery had corroded and disconnected. It was only the verdigris crumbs on the panel below that led me to that one!

I would suggest that both your advisers are correct and that something electrical has become dislodged in the process of the other operations.

The stop solenoid on the injection pump is a favourite one.
.

Just had another thought, glowplugs. Is there power to the glowplugs? (voltage) Are they drawing current. They could be receiving 12v but be bust inside so open circuit.

Is the glowplug relay coming in when you turn on the ignition?

Cheers

noz

Hi Kiwi just thought i might mention that if you have fuel and compression at the right time the only other thing you need is air, do you have a furry creature up your air intake maybe . You should have some evidence of smoke from the exhaust if the fuel is trying to combust .Good luck its just a process of elimination
Best regards Bob

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the advice and suggestions. I'm meeting the mechanic tomorrow (Saturday) and have printed off all of the replies to show him. I'm keen to pull an injector and see the spray. Will keep you posted!

Regards
Kiwi

did it ever go again?

Hi all,

The saga continues. I have been away for a month or so (in Singapore luckily) with work and have arrived back to find the XM still broken. The car has been transported from the mechanic to the diesel specialist, who hasn't been able to get it to go despite new glowplugs, rechecking the pump and injectors as well as the timing - which apparently was one tooth out.

I spent some time with him tonight and he believes the valves have been bent. With the rocker cover off and No 1 at TDC he put compressed air into the glowplug hole and got me to hold my hand over the valves. I could feel (and hear) air escaping past at least one of the valves. Very depressing. Tomorrow he is going to check the remaining cylinders with the compressed air check but he has done a compression test and the results look bleak.

The problem now is it is probably going to be a case of determining who is at fault so there isn't going to be a quick fix.

So, my question: is it possible to remove the head without removing the entire powerplant? Also, if the engine has been cranked with the timing out and the valves have contacted the pistons, is there likely to be damage to other components like pistons etc?

Regards,
Kiwi

Hi Kiwi

The timing being one tooth out is unlikely to have caused valve damage, it would have to be somewhat more than that, probably at least two, but incorrect timing is by far the most likely cause of damaged valves, so I think your dispute is with the person who fitted the belt or anyone who subsequently altered it.

Peter.N.

It's perfectly possible to remove the head in situ. But awkward and time-consuming. If you have other work to do on the engine - clutch perhaps -fetch it out.
I have to ask the obvious questions. Is there fuel in the tank? Is there fuel at the pump? Check cut-off valve. Is the fuel getting to the pump? Check at fuel filter outlet. Is the pump sending fuel to the injectors? Check by releasing a pipe.And so on.
I realise that all these suggestions have been made earlier, but have they been followed through logically rather than independently? It is so easy to lose the thread in the anxiety of the moment - we've all done it over and over!
Don't forget to let us all know what transpires. I'm sure we are most of us itching to be there to help!

Hi,

Yep, plenty of fuel and the injectors (freshly serviced) are working properly. The pump has been out twice by the diesel experts to check but the problem appears now to be a lack of compression preventing it from starting. Interesting because it was running fine when I delivered it to the mechanic. He drove it before working on it and agrees it was running well. Looks like we are headed for some drama.

Interested to hear if anyone has experienced damage caused by incorrect timing.

Regards
Kiwi

Low compression = valve damage = incorrect timing. Even the torque of the starter combined with the torque of a rotating flywheel will bend the valves. There is little other logical explanation for it.

I have in my yard a peugeot 405 td 1.9 XUD engine with bent valves and no compression due to the belt being slack and slipping.

My wifes BX also suffered the same fate when the belt broke. I thought has just occured, have you had the rocker cover off? Only as the 2.1 engine has hydraulic tappets, it also has rockers, which the 1.9 doesn't, could be one or more of these is bent or broken - although that shouldn't give you low compression.

Peter.N.

Hello all,

Never thought I'd live to see the day but......... I have my Mk 2 2.1TD auto back! It has been embroiled in a dispute between two repair agencies for over a year. To settle the argument of who had done what to cause the engine not to start one of them pulled the head off without asking my permission.

Turns out the valves weren't bent but apparently there was so much gunk in the inlet tract it had got under the valves and was compromising compression as they couldn't seal properly. Probably because of all the ether and diesel they were pouring direct into the inlet manifold to try and start it after messing around with it.

There is of course a huge labour bill attached to all of this, which the two mechanics have agreed to split between themselves. I've agreed to pay for the gaskets and bolts, which I think is a fair outcome. There are a couple of challenges to resolve such as the glowing ABS light and suspension stuck in hard mode but it is nice to have it back. The engine seems smoother than I remember, and it is interesting to drive again after clocking up thousands of miles in the Mk 1 2.0sei manual that I bought to get around in during the drama.

Haven't decided which dash I prefer yet, but I sure prefer the leather in the Mk 1!

Regards,
Kiwi