Regulator Return Hose, Help

[noz]

The return hose from the regulator back up to the reservoir has just sprung a leak on me. The hose has split about 50mm above the connection with the regulator inside the black plastic mesh protection. Hydraulic fluid sprays out the split when the regulator is idle and returning the fluid back to the reservoir. I'm 200miles from home. I'm just hoping I have enough fluid with me to get me home on Friday.

Does anyone have a spare hose I could purchase?

Thanks

noz

[xmexclusive]

Hi noz

Is this the return hose that goes across the top of the gearbox?
If so then it is a multi branch affair.
I had one of those go and joined it.
Took a bit of splicing in as I think I used 8 or 10 mm copper pipe.
Plastic pipe was very brittle so kept splitting.
In the end I reamed the plastic out just enough to suit the joining pipe size.
Has held for a few years now.
Looking at the complexity of the pipe and the fact that it went brittle I decided not to follow up Cit replacements.
Have a pattern somewhere and was going to make up the branch section in copper plumbing fittings using straight pipe for the rest.

John

[noz]

Hi John,

Thanks for that. I think the hose gets from the front of the engine to the rear over the top of the bellhousing above the gearbox as you say. I didn't pay enough attention to the shape or complexity last night. I've left the car at the B&B today so I'll have a closer look tonight.

Cheers

noz

[robertmnorton]

Hi Noz, are you 200 miles north ? past my way ? If so you're welcome to drop by and i can whip one off my spare to get you home.
robertm

[noz]

Hi Robert,

I'm in Muir of Ord, Inverness. However, from John's description below it might not be that easy. I haven't been back to the B&B yet to look to see how complicated the hose is but if it has multiple branches I could end up doing more damage than I solve. I think I might pop into Inverness tomorrow and buy several litres of LHM (at £9.99 a litre, gulp.....) and hope that the leak is not so bad that I can't get home. My ultimate solution will be the RAC if all else fails.

Thanks for your kind offer in any case.

Cheers

noz

[robertmnorton]

No probs Noz, Autosave behind the Renault franchise adjacent the new Cit franchise is your best bet, usually have 5 lt tubs, you can order/reserve online. Halfords is always there as a fall back
robertm

[xmexclusive]

Hi Noz

Hope you get it home ok.
Mine has caught the problems.
Collected it from PeterN's.
By Yeovil I had the Hydraulic pressure warning full on.
Back axle pipework has gone with LHM mist and puddles.
Worked it into the services and parked up in front of a Morris Oil Artic.
Driver came over to tell me I had a big leak.
He said he thought it was diesel smoke until I had stopped.
Asked for a case of LHM but he said it was more than his job was worth.
Long wait for the AA's contractor but at least they accepted over the phone the need to flat bed it home.
Will try and see exactly where it is coming from in the morning.

John

[Peter.N.]

Hi John and Noz

Sorry to hear about both of your problems, I did say to John as he was departing 'do you belong to the AA, first time its happened going from here and he has shunted a fair cars about.

I would think that the cost of a new pipe would be prohibitive, unless someone has old stock Noz. Making one up would seem to be the answer, I fortunately have never had trouble with one of those, doesn't sound very easy to get at. Hope you get it sorted OK.

Peter

[noz]

Hi Robert,

I eventually decided that the leak was not so bad that I couldn't limp home, filling up with replacement LHM as I went. I bought 3L at Highland Motor Parts, Units 12-13, 21 henderson road, Inverness IV1 1SN for £4.26 each. That is the lowest price for a litre I have seen in a long time. I set out southbound and got to Drumochter before needing my first top up. That got me to just south of Pitlochry when I added the second. I got as far as Perth before adding the third. The red light came on about Dunblane and I ran out about 10 miles from home. I limped the remainder with manual steering.

When I looked at the hose in question before leaving (whilst trying to decide on my best tactic) I found that there was a tee in the pipe where the return from the steering rack joins the return from the regulator. There was no easy way to rig something up with no tools, materials or ramps.

When I got home I pulled the hose of the regulator to try to determine where the split had occurred. I cut back the moulded end on the hose and also cut back the protective plastic mesh to about 150mm back from the end. I bent the hose betwen my fingers in several places trying to find the split when the last 75mm broke off in my hand. Initially I thought, great, I've found the split and the hose has broken at exactly that point. Unfortunately, as John had forecast, the hose had become brittle over time and had split at a location completely unrelated to the leak. The split in the hose itself was about 15mm from the broken end and was easy to see once removed form the car. Bearing in mind what John had said about chasing the pipe further and further up towards the tank looking for a bit that was not so brittle I looked around for a suitable extension pipe and jointing mechanism. I found a string reinforced hose the correct internal diameter to go over the spigot on the regulator. However, when I tried to marry that up with the existing hose I found that their internal diameters were completely different. The end on the original hose must have been moulded into the larger size needed to get over the regulator outlet spigot.

I searched for a while and finally found a piece of steel pipe which matched the diameter of the exisitng pipe and a bit of copper microbore which matched the internal diameter of the extension hose. I hammered the copper pipe over the top of the steel pipe since their respective internal and external diameters matched perfectly. However, an air test still showed a minute leak between them. So, I ran a bead of solder around the joint between the two and sealed them for good. I inserted the pipe into the extension hose first and then pushed the other end into the existing hose taking a lot of care not to split the brittle material. Having succeeded at that I slipped the extension hose over th eregulator outlet and used mini Jubilee clips to tie the whole lot together.

The problem seems fixed for now. However, the risk will always be there that the existing hose will continue to become more brittle and will eventually fail again. I see that the Citroen part number for a replacement hose is 5270 L2 "Oil Back Harnes".
It is still available for c£80 here:
http://www.citroencarparts.net/5270L2/
http://www.hcsale.com/shop/5270L2
http://www.kfzteile-profis.de/page_1_3.php#oeformo

For the last one the page corersponding to the actual part is buried in their flash player and cannot be accessed directly through a URL. Therefore, just search in the box provided for the part number above.

I hope that helps anyone in a similar predicament.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

John,
I sympathise with your high pressure leaking woes. I've had to get the RAC home on two occasions with HP leaks. As you say, you first have to convince the controller on the phone that you know what you are talking about and the car cannot be repaired at the roadside. Otherwise you have to wait on the first guy turning up only to say, "<long sucking sound> There's nothing I can do with that, mate. You need a recovery", which takes another two hours to arrive.
As I'm no doubt you are aware the favourite location for the leaks which you describe are on the horizontal run of pipes along the crossmember between it and the fuel tank. That area collects dirt and never gets a chance to dry out. The pipes are also bent after the black paint protection is added. This casues the paint to fracture at the bends allowing moisture to penetrate and corrode the pipe. The pipe is highly stressed at the apex of the bend which accellerates the corrosion process (back to my metallurgy days at college). I have repaired these many times. They are actually easy to access once you drop the rear subframe. I cut the offending pipe(s) back to a point near the cill where there is a convenient straight section and splice in a new section from that point to the termination on the respective hydraulic component in that area. I replace the pipe using cupro-nickel so there's no danger of it happening again. I also coat the tubing nuts and splices in waxoyl because they are steel and will still rust otherwise and the cupronickel is too soft to withstand the twisting when the corrosion on the tubing nut binds to the pipe wall.

I hope you got home safely and can repair your leak.

cheers

noz

[xmexclusive]

Hi Noz

Thanks for the update on how your leak went.
Been underneath mine and spliced in a length of CuNi.
So using it now, just need to sort out the clutch drive but that is a separate problem.
I am working my way through a T reg 2.5 estate as a scrapper.
Once I have the hydraulic clutch drive out I will see if I can recover that return pipe complete. Will take some photos and work out a DIY replacement.
I can see a need to have an alternative available as a spare.
Too much of a pain to be patching and joining on failure.
Aiming to start rebuilding a spare rear subframe with all CuNi this winter.

John

[noz]

Hi John,

When you say clutch drive, what exactly do you mean? To be clear, I have changed the clutch (full 3-piece kit) in my current 2.5TD with the engine in situ. Whilst it had always been my biggest fear with the 2.5TD, the job was actually quite easy. With the exception of presenting the gearbox back to the engine requiring a second pair of hands I did the whole job myself. It took me two days because I used the opportunity to do some other maintenance which added to the time. On reflection, without the additional work I can safely say that I could have done it in one (longish) day.

I photographed the job step by step with the intention of making a self-help file but never got around to it. Let me know if you need them and I'll post you a CD.

The pipe itself is relatively accessible. The regulator end is accessible after removing the fuel filter and the return from the rack is accessible from underneath. The only hiccup might be fixing clips. There's certainly one on the top of the gearbox from memory. Other than that it should just pull out. The reservoir might need to be slackened off to permit a bit of clearance between the reservoir and the bulkhead.

Cheers

noz

[robertmnorton]

Hi Noz, glad you made it home, albeit with a little trepidation. Thanks for the trully informative update.
robertm

[xmexclusive]

Hi Noz

Very interested in the clutch change photos please.
I have two SORN 2.5's that will need clutches doing eventually.
The low mileage (110k) one needs to be fitted for aircon at the same time.
That may justify engine out anyway.
The other is an Exclusive on 210k so might do an engine swap anyway.
I have a 120k spare engine that could go in that one.
The car with the clutch drive problem had a non standard drive fitted.
Original drive got damaged when the clutch was changed.
The hydraulic drive does not release totally reliably.
Can still drive the car but I intend to put standard bits back in.
As far as the hydraulic drive is concerned there are a few twists.
Removing and fitting to pedal box is a pain because of getting to it.
Undoing the central connector on the pipe needs the special tool.
It also needs the slave cylinder released first or the tool fails to work.
In refitting the Citroen changes in component design can trap you.
There were 2 designs of slave cylinder and 3 lengths of push rod used.
There have also been a small number of Mk2 V6 manual clutch kits on ebay.
These look identical to the 2.5 ones and will physically fit.
Clutch plate can have wrong friction and springs.
Thrust bearing can be short to suit a ML box.
So spares from any source particularly reclaimed need very careful checking.
When you did your clutch did you renew any of the fork components?

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on August 22, 2012 07:20 pm

[techmanagain]

........The low mileage (110k) one needs to be fitted for aircon at the same time......
It is one heck of a job to retrofit air con. Andrew Cox may still have the ones he stripped out of a scrapper here and never IIRC never used .

[xmexclusive]

Hi Brian

Thanks for the warning.
I have a fairly good idea of the extent of work.
Aircon is something I particularly value in an XM.
The target 2.5's are currently SORN, dry stored.
Both are low mileage (car 50k, estate 110k) with a long history in my ownership.
All the bits are obtained ready.
They will be my last XM's on the road so no great hurry to complete them yet.
I have a few other 2.5's to work through first.
Dash out on a 2.5 is a lot easier second time around.
Engine out lets you refit it as aircon ready to go back in.
Pipework into an empty bay is much easier.
Virtually all the wiring is present in a VSX.
Not economic but something I want to do.

John