2.1 TD Gassy water !!, Water loss through expansion tank

[noz]

Hi Phil,

I don't have any experience on the 2.1TD but on the 2.5TD it is very easy to mistake one of the clutch bolt holes for the timing hole (been there, got the T-shirt). They are on the same PCD as the timing hole on the flywheel. The only distinguishing feature is that the bolt holes are threaded whereas the timing hole is plain. You can only see this with a close look and some very good lighting. The distance between the timing hole and the closest bolt hole is only about 20mm. Using the wrong hole puts the timing out by approx the equivalent of one tooth on the belt. This is enough to get it started but for the running to be very rough.

On the 2.5TD there is a lug cast into the engine block at the rear of the engine next to the differential. It has an M8 plain hole through it. To time the crank you pass an M8 bolt through this hole and locate it in the appropriate plain hole on the back side of the flywheel. I'm not sure if it is the same with the 2.1TD.

Hope that helps,

cheers

noz

[bov783]

Thanks for that, can you confirm which is number 1 is it the gearbox end ??
Thanks
Phil

[noz]

Gearbox end

[bov783]

HELP think I've killed it!! Tried starting but will not fire up and I can here a mechanical knock!!
When I turn the engine it sounds miss timed. The engine did turn by hand ok and at one stage I did get it ticking over for about five seconds. As I opened the throttle it stopped and will not fire again. There is a worrying noise too. I decided to strip the timing belt covers and check the timing. All the pins go in ok I even removed the starter motor. I can't see any valve gear damage and the engine turns ok by hand. The things I need to know are
1 is it possible to be miss timed if all the timing bolts are located.
2 the orientation of the cam in relation to pot 4 ( nearest the gearbox ) when on compression tdc
3 could I get valve contact even thought it turned by hand and did actually run
4 dose the orientation of the crank shaft key look ok if it went back a tooth it would line up with the gap on the block but the I would not get the fly wheel pin in??
Any help most welcome.
Ps I did crack the injectors and the fuel was there.

[bov783]

[bov783]

[bov783]

[bov783]

[bov783]

[noz]

Hi Phil,

To answer your questions:
1. It would be highly unlikely to be mistimed if all of the locking bolts are entered correctly. From your photos they all look fine to me. However, because the cam and injection pump travel at half the speed of the crank it is theoretically possible to get the cam and pump 180Degrees out compared to the crank. There would still not be any piston/valve contact but now you'd be injecting on the exhaust stroke and the exhaust would be coming out of the inlet manifold. You said it started for 5 seconds or so which really rules out this possibility. Nonetheless it is wise to check. No.4 cylinder (farthest away from the gearbox) should be at TDC on the compression stroke when the locking pins are all in their correct places (according to the book of lies).
2. See above. Cylinder 4 is farthest from the gearbox as per my previous post.
3. It seems highly unlikely that you could get piston/valve contact whilst running but not whilst turning by hand. The only way this would be possible is that the proximity of piston and valve are so close on hand turning that the additional stretch in the conrod and bearings makes enough difference for them to touch. The slight stretch in the runnig timing belt may also contribute. However, as I said, highly unlikely. Please check the valve timing again as above.
4. It is doubtful if the key on the crankshaft has anything to do with timing. It is certainly not mentioned in the book of lies or the Citroen manual. However, in the Citroen manual, when all of the locks are in place, the crankshaft key points directly at the centre of the cam pulley. The drawing does not show the two protrusions in the engine casting as in your photo so I can't tell where the key is in relation to them.

Hope that helps,

cheers

noz

[bov783]

Many many thanks for that noz.
Will take another look tonight I'm not sure if I can tell if no 4 is a tdc on compression stroke . Will try and rake a photo of the cam lobes . The only way I can tell where the crank position is is by the timing plug . I could always drop the sump but I've just done an oil change !!
Regards
Phil

[noz]

Hi Phil,

Can't you take out the injectors or at least no.4 injector? By putting a finger over the injector hole you can feel the air pressure increase as you turn the crank when its on its compression stroke.

cheers

noz

[bov783]

Hi Noz

Can't get the injector out I think you need a special socket its a bugger to get at with an open ended !!
Looks like Im going to throw in the towel !! If there is anyone near Lincoln wants it let me know !!
Regards
Phil

[robertmnorton]

Hi Phil,Noz has answered your questions and i explained the position of the cam lobes when #4 is on compression in your query on the crank timing hole.
With due respect to Noz i got my valve timing one tooth out and found i could turn the engine by hand,but when turned over on the starter to effect a start i heard the ping as the exhaust cam followers snapped.It is very evident and you can easily tell by attempting to move each valve cam follower with your finger.Any one that is loose to touch is snapped.You can fish out the tappet socket end with a magnet.A good clue is exhausted fuel out of the inlet tracts.I fitted corks in the injector holes to determine which cylinder was doing what and when before replacing the 4 exhaust cam followers,and cam carrier,aligning the cam in the position explained,watch your eyes, they pop out with some force even when the crank is turned slowly.The cam carrier is held down by 6mm allen socket bolts of various lengths,so take note of their position on removal.
I have seen 2 different explanations for the direction of fitment of the new cambelt.I found that the cam to pump should be seated first then work clockwise with the intermediate guide pulley between tensioner and crank being the last point to slide the belt over.
It really is not too big a disaster if you have indeed experienced this mishap.I hope not,but you'll get it right.
The cam followers are the same as ued on the DK5 and some of the HDI engines so are readily available at between £5 & £7 each from engine overhaulers.
robertm

Just seen your reply regarding injector removal.You will need a 27mm injector socket,nothing else will do.I use a Tee bar with extensions to provide even sided torque and have no bother removing them.

This post has been edited by robertmnorton on July 04, 2011 08:50 pm

[bov783]

Big thanks to all who have advised me on this post. I have finaly got it running. I was sure the timing was wrong due to the sound of the engine turning over and the fact that it would not fire. I stripped the belt covers off and removed the starter motor to re fit the three pins. They all went in perfect. I knew the pump and cam could not be 180 out as I never removed the bolts. I did remove the crank pin but did not turn the engine. I would recomend leaving all pin in so you don't pull the head down on a valve!!
When I first tried to start it I heard a mechanical knock which realy worried me. The second time I started it I undid the injector pipes and got the wife to turn the engine over. I then tightend each one up under pressure.
After a bit of banging and smoke it ran. I did not have any induction pipes or rocker cover on so I got a gob full of oil. I then put it all back together again and we went to meadow hall !! Ran like a dream and pushed it up to 80 on the m1.
All seems fine no leaks and temp ok. I think it's a little less powerfull on the uptake but that's probably due to the thicker gasket.
We are off to London tommorow to see Take That so hope all goes well.
Many thanks again and if anyone is thinking of doing a head gasket on a 2.1 I would say go for it. If I can do it anyone can !!
Regards
Phil