strut mounting, strut monting

[xmexclusive]

A couple of very interesting posts.

Pauls diagram helps a lot.
I agree that item 4 has little or no engineering value.
Item 3 the main rubber ring has two large slots in the underside.
These are positioned to give the strut more movement across the car and be stiffer front to rear. Making the baseplate (item 2) oblong could give that movement difference with solid rubber. Such a baseplate would be easier for small run fabrication.
I hope to add some C5 strut heads to my collection soon to check on how different they are. The baseplate on these is galvanised and the top opening square rather than round.

That last contribution from Noz is a useful reminder of the likely legal position.
It confirms any remaufacturing for group sale or profit an unwise project.
Individual efforts to remanufacture will be as expensive as buying new from Citroen.
The swedish system does not repair all, is not an approved system and is clearly visible.
There is very little scope for repair of failed strut heads.
None of the alternatives (Xantia or C5) look capable of modification to fit.
The future supply of new XM ones from Citroen is doubtful.
As Noz suggests not looking very bright for long term XM's.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on September 13, 2010 10:08 am

[kenhall1202]

QUOTE (miri agler @ September 12, 2010 09:25 pm) 

thank you for the informion


can i buy it from lemforder?

Lemforder is a supplier of OEM suspension and steering components to major car manufacturers such as Citroen and BMW and I think it is very unlikely that they would sell directly to the public. However having said that, it is possible to buy a range of aftermarket Lemforder replacement parts from motor factors such as Eurocarparts, but they do not list XM strut tops in their catalogue unfortunately.

It may be worth a shot to make an enquiry to Eurocarparts to see if there is any possibility of them sourcing XM strut tops directly from Lemforder.

Ken

PS I have followed my own advice and fired off an enquiry to Eurocarparts. I will post their response.

and here it is, no joy I'm afraid:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email enquiry. Unfortunately, the parts you have requested are main dealer only parts.

I am sorry we were unable to help in this instance, but please continue to consider us for any future part requests.

Kind regards,

Ashish Nandal

Parts Requests Team

This post has been edited by kenhall1202 on September 13, 2010 12:22 pm

[messerschmitt owner]

Peter

how does the oil affect the rubber over time?

I'm speaking from experience of rubber failure due to petroil penetration. In my Messerschmitt, the rubber in torsion suspension sits directly under the petrol tap and if the tap leaks (and they all do) a 25:1 petroil mix drips onto the rubber suspension. At some point the rubber shears as a result.

Just a thought.

I think the production of some parts such as this would involve public liability insurance. At some point one of us is going to look into remanufacture, exactly the same way as every car club and individual where the cars are no longer supported from the factory must do.

So, is it a problem - only if the parts are likely to fail within a guarantee period - which would most likely be a year. How many have gone in use (ie when driving along) and what was the result?

We know the likely fail issues and these are the same regardless of who made a new strut top.

[Peter.N.]

Well, I suppose the longst I have owned one specific XM is about five years and I haven't had a problem in that time, even the one I had fail due to rubber seperation showed no ill effects form the oil. I know if rubber is left soaked in oil it will deteriorate but the once a year application only stays wet for a relativly short period and just leaves a dampish residue.

Peter

[noz]

yaron,

I'm loathed to do this since I think Wolsley House Motors are ridiculously expensive and I don't want to advertise them any more than I can help but they have a pair of strut tops on ebay just now. They are second hand and they want £165 for the drivers side and utterly bizzarely £149 for the passenger side. There is of course an unreasonable (£15) in postage on top. I'll leave it up to you. It just depends on how desperate you are.

Right/Drivers/Offside (RHD)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Citroen-XM-2-5-V6-St...=item2a05e38ed1

Left/Passengers/Nearside (RHD)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Citroen-XM-Strut-leg...=item2a054f9e62

Having had a look at their other parts offerings I realise that I'm sitting on a veritable gold mine at those prices

Expensive parts simply lead to more cars ending up in the scrap yard. Its a self-defeating philosophy. No more XMs - no more people buying parts.

cheers

noz

[messerschmitt owner]

Noz

I'm inclined to agree about expensive parts, but without any parts no one will take the time and effort to keep a car like this on the road.

In which case, someone is going to have to make them. Parts remanufacture is a time consuming business but without it there will be no cars, and that means someone is going to start. At some points forums like this will have to go beyond meeting places for like-minded car enthusiasts and become more like proper car clubs, in the same way that we will have to club together to pay for remanufacture of bits.

The alternative is worthless cars and no hope of even die hard enthusiasts restoring them/keeping them on the road.

[Peter.N.]

Perhaps John will go into production with all those centres he has.

[minijet]

.
I think the rubber is the bigger problem.
The metal parts can be protected, or even made from stainless steel.
But the rubber part will innevitably give up eventually.

I thought I had a couple of good spare strut tops, until that latest failure. Then I decided to have a closer look, at the underside...........



I wonder how long this one will last if I decide to use it?

Here's a rough cross section through a strut top. I'll have a go at shading (or colouring) the different parts sometime to try to make it a bit clearer.
Of course, some of the inner parts are guesswork as I havn't been able to look inside a strut top.......



So, does anyone think it would be possible to rotate the top section a few degrees to convert a N/S top to a O/S top?

Paul

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[xmexclusive]

I think we have been through the WHM strut heads with Yaron in the previous post.
There is also the issue of strut rod size to clear up to be sure the right size ones are obtained.
Citroen is not very good on accurate information on late car strut head sizes.
So very important to check this by actual measurement.
In my cars the drivers side strut heads generally seem to be much worse than the passenger side. 3 drivers side is my most urgent need. Perhaps WHM have seen a similar trend so are pricing up the more limited stock.
On treating rusty strut heads my preference is to strip the top rubber, clean up the steel and treat with a good rust protective paint. This is easiest done off the car. In the interim it is always worth stripping any loose or cracked top rubber otherwise it retains water by capilliary action feeding the rust process.

Hi Paul

Just looked at your last photo. Early stages of Axial tearing in the rubber.
IMHO the most serious and rapid failure modes of XM strut heads.
The strut head bolts are push fit in the metal base so drilling to reposition is physically possible. Same for drilling new bolt hole in the chassis. Unfortunately if a wrong hand head was fitted that way the insets in the rubber would be wrongly positioned so the strut lateral movement would be different from original design.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on September 13, 2010 02:58 pm

[kenhall1202]

QUOTE (minijet @ September 13, 2010 02:28 pm) 

.

So, does anyone think it would be possible to rotate the top section a few degrees to convert a N/S top to a O/S top?

Paul

.

As Noz said the lower pressed steel 'can' is an interference fit inside the top casting achieved by the ring of dimples, 3 of which can just be seen in your photo. I guess on assembly a mandrel of some sort is used to deform the can outwards into a corresponding circular groove in the casting thus firmly locking the two together. So in answer to your question I think it is unlikely you would be able to rotate the top casting independently.

I think that there is some life left in the stut top in your photo but the main rubber obviously has started to tear away from the inner can and would need to be monitored (or fit strut restraints!). The torn rubber in the void between the main rubber sections is insignificant as it is only a thin web from the casting process and doesn't contribute to the mechanical integrity, although it might be an initiation point for tearing to start.

Ken

This post has been edited by kenhall1202 on September 13, 2010 03:34 pm

[minijet]

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QUOTE (xmexclusive @ September 13, 2010 02:43 pm) 

The strut head bolts are push fit in the metal base so drilling to reposition is physically possible. Same for drilling new bolt hole in the chassis.

John

Why would you need to drill new holes John?
As far as I can see the base plates are all the same.
I compared left and right strut tops and everything looks the same.
The only difference is the angle at which the top section (5) is set (and the orientation of the rubber (3) as you pointed out......I hadn't thought of that).

I have both left and right strut tops in the garage. I'll take some pictures of them together to compare them.

But from what's been said, it looks a bit pointless, if the top section can't be seperated from the bottom section .

If anyone fancies having a go at separating these two parts (I had a go myself with absolutely no success whatsoever) I can post the broken strut top to them.

Paul

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[davetherave]

Hi paul
I would be interested in the tops,
I have recently been thinking about the very same idea of re-manafacturing the tops, I have spoken to an engineer who has given me some ideas...
Sadly at the moment I only have two tops though from france (and the drivers one is far to good to destroy zero rust good rubber!)
Ill send you a Pm.
Dave

[xmexclusive]

Hi Paul

You are right, if you use the existing bolt holes.
The only thing that is going to be wrong is the position of the sphere and perhaps the LHM supply pipe.
Will also do a comparision this evening if I get the time.
I had automatically assumed swapping type gave big problems.
Now I am interested to see if it would work.

John

[minijet]

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Hi Dave,
have replied to your pm.

Paul

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[minijet]

QUOTE (xmexclusive @ September 13, 2010 06:40 pm) 

Hi Paul

The only thing that is going to be wrong is the position of the sphere and perhaps the LHM supply pipe.

John

Hi John,

it all depends whether or not the top (hydraulic) part can be moved round to face the other way.
After reading the previous posts, it's now looking doubtful.

Regarding the insets in the rubber - they still face the same way which ever side of the car they're on, as they're relative to the base plate, not the hydraulic top......



Paul

.l