strut mounting, strut monting

[yaronlhm]

hello

can someone tell me were i can found the front strut mounting L+R

for my xm v6 1999

thank you

yaron

[noz]

Hi Yaron,

Unfortunately, as you are no doubt aware, the strut tops are a common failure point on the XM. I would think every member of club-xm would like two new strut tops.

I wish you the very best in your search.

Cheers

noz

[yaronlhm]

thanks

so what do you do until you buy a new one ?

is there any way to fix them?

they very expensive to buy.

[steelcityuk]

Hi,

There was a scandanavian (?) chap that sold a repair kit but that was a few years ago and I think it could only be used if the rubber part was in good condition.

Steve.

[yaronlhm]

hello

so what do you all do?

dont ride the car?

because i dont have 1500$ to pay for each side.

yaron

[noz]

Hi Yaron,

I don't have an exact answer to your question but I can tell you my own experience.

I have replaced my strut tops twice (once each for two different cars). In the first case my local scrap car merchant was breaking an XM which had almost new strut tops. I bought them from there. The second time, I went on holiday to France and went to a number of scrap yards there and bought another pair.

In both cases I prepared and cleaned the turret on the inner wing both underneath and above and coated liberally with Waxoyl. I also coated the strut tops in Waxoyl. I slowed down the deterioration rate substantially by doing this.

So in both cases I relaced my strut tops from cars which had already been scrapped. By definition, this can only happen for a limited time. At some point in time there will not be enough cars being scrapped from which to salvage the parts. If the cars are being scrapped because of strut tops then the scrap ones will not help the remaining cars on the road.

It is not a good situation. I suppose what we should all do is put our collective heads together to come up with an after-market fix. Otherwise all of our XMs will end up in the scrap yard very soon.

cheers

noz

[yaronlhm]

hello again

in my car the problem with the top strut is the rubber,and you said that in your case the problem was rust right?

at the moment i put some part of iron in both side that will help me not to get the strut off the bonnet.

i dont understand way its so expensive.

[kenhall1202]

QUOTE (miri agler @ September 12, 2010 03:40 pm) 

hello again

in my car the problem with the top strut is the rubber,and you said that in your case the problem was rust right?

at the moment i put some part of iron in both side that will help me not to get the strut off the bonnet.

i dont understand way its so expensive.

Hi Yaron,

I'm afraid it is the same story for a lot of car spares - the price charged by the dealer seems to bear no relation to the perceived 'worth' or cost of making the part. This may be partly due to the parts makers no longer having the economies of large scale production such as when the car was still being made. The unique XM strut tops are/were made for Citroen by Lemforder (if you examine the strut top underside closely you will see the extremely small picture cast in the rubber of an owl inside a triangle, which is the Lemforder trade mark). We do not know whether Citroen is selling strut tops from a dwindling finite stock or whether it maintains a stock level by getting small production runs done by Lemforder.The latter could explain why they are so expensive.

My understanding is that the Swedish repair kit is meant only to repair rust damaged strut tops where the rubber is still intact and uses a new steel top piece bonded to the rubber with an adhesive.

Ken

[yaronlhm]

thank you for the informion


can i buy it from lemforder?

[xmexclusive]

Axially torn rubber is a particular problem with V6 strut heads.
This is just one of the 4 types of failure that I have identified with strut heads.
Particularly if the car at some time has been driven extensively with flat spheres.
The swedish overclamp system is used to treat top rusting problems.
It uses windscreen rubber adhesive for bonding.
I have not tried it yet but I think a similar adhesive could repair some strut heads.
These are:-
Rubber debonding from the underside of the metal cone
and
Axial tearing of the rubber cone.

For the present I am collecting any available XM strut heads whatever condition.
The reason is that if we move to remanufacturing then the difficult and expensive component is the machined centre. If we can recover and reuse these then just a new fabricated metal base cone and the rubber moulding will be needed.
A good supply of the centres could well make the difference between successful and economic remanufacturing or no XM's left on the road.
Scrap yard supply is already difficult to track down.
I have collected a few failed heads as well.
If you think we have problems then the Xantia with its 4th unique mode of failure (underside rusting) has provided some horrendous examples far worse than the XM ones. Because of the volume replaced Xantia strut heads are one third the price of XM ones.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on September 12, 2010 09:28 pm

[minijet]

.
This mess was the result of strut rubber fatigue......



It's my second strut top failure.
First one was due to rust.

I could never understand how strut tops were put together, but this latest failure has given me the opportunity to have a better look at strut top construction.......




I've now come to the conclusion that a strut top is made up of five main components..........



1. The inner steel cylinder which sits on the strut.
2. The main clamping plate - the part which normally rusts and fails.
3. The solid rubber block that connects parts 1 and 2 together and will eventually/inevitably fail.
4. The steel dish.......I don't know the purpose of this part.
5. The top section which houses the hydraulic connections.

Parts 1, 4 and 5 never fail so don't need to be replaced.
It's just parts 2 and 3 that cause the problems.
Part 5 is probably the most costly part to manufacture.
All five parts are interchangable from side to side, ie there are not left or right hand parts.
The strut tops only become left or right when part 5 is fitted - depending which way the hydraulic connections are facing. I suspect that with the right tools the top section (5) could be turned to enable a N/S strut top to become a O/S strut top.......

Eventually all strut tops will fail.
Not many owners will be willing or able to pay Citroens prices for new replacement strut tops.

So......

*....Would it be possible to refurbish the strut tops by replacing just parts 2 and 3 (and maybe part 1 if it's not possible to remove the old rubber from it)?

*....How is the rubber section applied to parts 1 and 2.
Are the three parts bonded together?
Or are parts 1 and 2 placed in some sort of mould and liquid rubber poured in around them and left to set?

*....Do we have any engineers or rubber moulding experts on the forum to give an opinion?
Would parts 2 and 3 (and possibly part 1) be very difficult/expensive to manufacture?

I think the top part (5) would be removable with the right tools.

Any thoughts?

Paul

.

This post has been edited by minijet on September 12, 2010 10:59 pm

[Ken newbold]

Hi Paul

This is really bad news again. Does this mean your off the road? if so I might be able to help.
Let me know how things are.

[minijet]

.
Hi Ken,
thanks for your concern and the kind offer, but this happened a few weeks ago.....
http://www.club-xm.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1822

I had a spare strut top so I was able to replace it the same day.
It ruined the bonnet (my favourite XM too ), and the MOT has run out on that one now, so I'm using the white SX that I bought a few months ago.

Thanks again,

Paul

.

This post has been edited by minijet on January 01, 2013 07:22 pm

[noz]

Like others who recognise that strut tops probably represent the single largest threat to the wellbeing of any XM I have thought about how we, as a community, could get together and solve this issue. Taking the existing strut top and salvaging the expensive bits leaves us with the casing into which the rubber must be injected to form the joint. This is physically possible. A local ijnection moulder could be persuaded to make short production runs.

However, I have one huge concern. If I/we, for example, started to do this and exchanging/selling them to members and the unthinkable happens ie a failure in use, there would be an unavoidable law suit. No matter how thankful and happy the member was to have obtained a strut top to keep his lovely XM on the road an injury and/or death would soon change their minds and a witch hunt would ensue. Even if the member himself/herself could reconcile the situation in their own minds the lawyers certainly couldn't.

It often crosses my mind when helping someone out with any kind of mechanical or electrical repair. What is my actual liability? i.e. the one whilst sitting in the dock rather than the imponderable, theoretical kind. Would a disclaimer help? Maybe in the sense that it may protect the seller of the strut top but I doubt it for the injured third party.

For everyone that knows me you will also know that I am not, by nature, a doomer. I will have a go at fixing absolutely everything (haven't had the opportunity to fix a nuclear reactor, yet ;-). I would still even have a go at strut tops if only for my own consumption. But we must recognise we live in highly litigious times. If only it were otherwise.

If anyone has any thoughts on this or a better understanding of the legal issues please wade in.

Cheers

noz

ps
Paul,
Superb diagram. Thanks for that. I've had an attempt to understand the make-up of the strut top myself and have intended to put one through a band saw to find out (does anyone have a u/s spare to which they'd be willing to do this?). I've just never managed it. On closer inspection it looks to me like parts 1 and 2 are assembled first and put into the injection moulder as a pair. (In order, part 3 is actually located between parts 1 and 2). After the rubber is injected, the combination of parts 1,2 and 3 (now as one unit) are offered up through part 4 into part 5. Looking up inside part 1 from the bottom I can see a dozen or so 'dimples' which look like they were formed with ball bearings in a spreader tool. The dimples will be created to keep parts 1 and 2 locked together effectively swelling the top section of part 1 into a recess machined into the lower section of part 5, effectively the reverse principle of a pipe olive. The dimples could be machined out allowing parts 1 and 5 to be separated but 1) they'd need to be fixed together again with the same technique and 2) you'd be left with less material than you had before which would weaken the joint. Therefore, we are probably looking at having to form a mould around parts 1 and 2 whilst fully assembled.

Just thoughts.

This post has been edited by noz on September 13, 2010 09:13 am

[Peter.N.]

I know its frowned upon by some but I have been able to preserve all my strut tops by the application of some engine oil to the top side once a year, it creeps into any gaps that you cant reach and has so far for me prevented any failures - except one when the rubber broke away.

Peter