Xm Specifications Manual, Lots of good data

[noz]

Hi all,

I found this specifications booklet recently. It covers the Xantia, XM and Synergie. The format does not lend itself to extracting the XM-only info so it is posted here in full.

There's some really interesting info in here. For example, it reinforces once again that the injector model for the 2.5TD is different for the injector fitted with the needle sensor. We'll get to the bottom of this conundrum at some point.

Have fun.

cheers
noz

[kenhall1202]

Hi Noz,

I can't save or open this pdf file properly - just get symbols.

Ken

Correction - works if you savefile to desktop then open with Adobe.

This post has been edited by kenhall1202 on July 15, 2010 02:17 pm

[noz]

H Ken et al,

Since the forum software was updated the attachments now work as they should. A single click should give you the option of opening it directly or saving it first. What a pain that used to be. I'm glad its fixed now.

cheers,

noz

[Jan-hendrik]

Yes, very useful. Thanks for this

[nightmare]

Hi Noz,

The injector "HOLDER" is different because it has the needle lift sensor and the wire in it.
The actual injector is the same for all 4.

HTH

[xmexclusive]

Hi Nightmare

Not the full story for the 2.5 XM injector spec I am afraid.
According to Citroen the injector with the needle lift sensor uses a different nozzle to the other 3 injectors.
The Peugeot 605 spec does not make that individual injector variation.
But it does use both types of nozzle as sets of 4 for different 2.5 applications.
Different spec Bosh ECU's are also used.
An area where much research has not given definitive answers for the design reasons.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on November 25, 2012 10:00 pm

[citroenxm]

Wow, how imforative, including the HDi engine...

Out of interest, I simply clicked on it in FireFox and it went to a PDF page and simpy came up...

[CitroJim]

Just downloaded it. Thanks Noz

[nightmare]

QUOTE (xmexclusive @ November 24, 2012 03:46 pm) 

Hi Nightmare

Not the full story for the 2.5 XM injector spec I am afraid.
According to Citroen the injector with the needle lift sensor uses a different nozzle to the other 3 injectors.
The Peugeot 605 spec does not make that individual injector variation.
But it does use both types of nozzle as sets of 4 for different 2.5 applications.
Different spec Bosh ECU's are also used.
An area where much research has not given definitive answers for the design reasons.

John

That doesn't make sense, with a different nozzle you would get a different amount of fuel entering the cylinder thus giving an uneven burn compared to the other three!

OR have I got that wrong?

Apart from that I bought a SET of FOUR injectors (Not the holders) for my XM 2.5TD and they were all the same part No.
Admittedly that was a third party diesel specialist (NOT Citroen).
Fitted over two years ago by myself and they work fine.

P.S.
Page 158 shows the injector as KCE 30S5 for ALL cylinders.
As previously stated it is the Holder for Cylinder No3 thats different 316 because it has the needle lift sensor in it.

This post has been edited by nightmare on November 29, 2012 05:25 pm

[xmexclusive]

Fraid not.

According to the Citroen XM workshop manual:

The cylinder No 3 injector is type KCE 30S7 fitted with a DNOSD 316 nozzle.
Identification marker is the electrical lead.
Setting is 170 - 175 bar.

The other 3 injectors are type KCE 30S5 fitted with DNOSD 312 nozzles.
Identification is a green paint marker.
Pressure setting as above.

The Pug 605 workshop manual list for its 2.5 DK5 engine:

Injector type KCE 30S9 but all 4 fitted with DNOSD 312 nozzles,
Except using DNOSD 316 nozzels for Germany only.
Identification is a white paint marker for the non sensor injectors.
Same pressure settings.

We have been round this subject a few times on here.
Logic tells us all 4 should be the same.
All the diesel repair shops that have been consulted can offer no explanation.

I suggest that you reread page 158 of the booklet that started this thread.
That actually lists the 316 nozzel for the XM sensor injector and 312's for the rest.
Checking an earlier version of the booklet (1997) lists the sensor injector as KCE S7.

Not yet got my hands on any Pug 605 ECU's for 2.5's as the cars are a bit rare.
Pug workshop manual says there are two different types of ECU used.
But the ECU difference was from the introduction of the car.
With and without code pad and not the Citroen emmisions change.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on November 29, 2012 11:13 pm

[nightmare]

I know it's been a long time but you REALLY should look at Pg158 yourself as it clearly shows the same INJECTOR'S in ALL (1,2,3&4).
The [injector holder +holder] IS different for cylinder 3 (No316). But the injector is still KCE30S5.
For 1,2&4 the [injector holder +holder] is (No312) whilst the injector's are KCE30S5.
Therefore the combined injector +holder's are given different Numbers to identify which one is fitted with the needle-lift sensor.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Nightmare

I have previously told you above that this version of the quick mechanics guide is not consistent over the years it has been published.
All the earlier versions I have checked describe the Citroen 2.5 sensor injector as KCE 30 S7.

In the front cover of these Citroen quick guides is a warning note to the effect that they are updated and republished yearly. They only apply to the model year vehicles when published and therefore old copies should be retained and the correct version consulted according to the age of the car.

Seems they have made this particular typo in the 2000 version.

Try checking in the original Citroen workshop manual for the definitive version.
XM 146-00/8 page 3.
You will see I have quoted correctly.
My source information for the Pug 605 injectors comes from their original manual.
If you also look at the exploded injector diagram you will see the part marked 3 comprises the matching injector needle and oriface. These replacement parts are obtained by buying a Bosch nozel set type DNOSD312 or DNOSD316.

If you want the detail then KCE 30 S is the injector body.
The end number indicates the injector nozel size fitted and the injection pressure set.

I have reused in XM 2.5's other KCE 30 S injectors recovered from both Cit van 2.5's and AX diesels.
They needed replacement nozels (DNOSD312 or DNOSD316) and reset opening pressure to convert for XM 2.5 use.


John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on September 04, 2014 10:34 pm

[nightmare]

Thank you for your patience xmexclusive.

I've rechecked with my original suppliers and they confirmed that number 3 WAS a different part number but my quote(and their order) was for 4 the same
They had to confirm with the suppliers that it was correct as they had never heard of it before.

Still going strong @ 192,374 miles and no smoke.

[xmexclusive]

Pleased your XM is still going well and being looked after.

There is no problem over raising this again as far as I am concerned.

I still find it surprising that Citroen specified a slightly different injector nozzle for the sensor injector.
Particularly so when for the same engine Peugeot did not.

The diesel overhaul specialists we have spoken too can see no logic.
A number of us have checked original injectors and found all 4 with the same nozzle.
I think when Noz had a set of injectors refurbished with new nozzles he used 4 the same.

In practice the nozzle size difference is very small but I would like to know for sure that it does not make a material difference.

I bought a Pug 605 2.5TD ECU on German ebay last year.
The code and part numbers are different to XM ones.
One of these days I will take it to bits and read the EPROM's and compare with XM.

John

[noz]

Hi John et al,

This topic has been going around for a very long time. I think one of the assumptions we have all made (yours truly included) is that the different part number automatically meant a different nozzle orifice size which would make no sense. I think its a reasonable assumption that injector #3 can't inject a different amount of fuel than the other three injectors. An alternative view might be that the top end of the pintle in the nozzle for injector #3 is shaped differently in order that it can mate more accurately with the moving part of the sensing coil. In which case, the actual orifice through which the fuel passes may therefore be the same as the other injectors (which would make more sense). The issue with this hypothesis is that the wrong pintle (i.e. the pintle in #3 injector being the same as the others instead of unique) may therefore not engage properly with the moving part of the sensing coil and hence may give slightly wrong timing information to the ECU.

Unfortunately, the attached document doesn't just quite answer the mystery. The "0" in the middle of the code would suggest that it has a spray angle of zero degrees which doesn't seem right.

Any other thoughts welcome.

cheers

noz