Just Looking

[Dieselman]

Hi,
I'm just looking around and think this seems a really good, happy and informative forum, loads of DIY...

I've been thinking about buying a classic Cit as a second car but have been drawn back to the XM as opposed to a much older one..though an SM/GS/GSA/CX isn't out of the running yet....maybe..
I've worked on a number of Cits including BX,GS,GSA, Xantia and XM and have had two XM from new, a Series 1 2.0si (1991 J plate), and a Series 1.5 (?) 2.1SD auto (1993 L plate).

My father had 3 GS and GSA when I was young then a Pug 309 and back into a 1994 Xantia 1.9vsx which he sold last year...after getting 'pressure'..

I've had a few other Pug diesels and so's Bro, so we've seen a few XUD and HDI motors...

I have a question though.
With the XM I prefer the hatch to look at but find headroom a bit low, is the estate noticably better in this respect and is the 2.1 definately more relaible than the 2.5.?

One of the main reasons I'm swayed towards an XM as opposed to an older Cit is rust. Is the XM still holding out underneath in this respect.
Mechanical work I like, body and paint I loathe...

I had a good read of jorgy9 supension thread was very absorbing..

This post has been edited by Dieselman on February 02, 2009 12:05 am

[demag]

Hello Dieselman,

Welcome to the club. I don't think rust is a major problem except on some older models. Its not unknown for outer cills to fail. Peter is the 2.1 guru and he will no doubt be along soon. Andrew might be persuaded to sell something as he's got far too many Cits.

[Dieselman]

Thanks.
I've just checked my XM's for tax and they are SORN..so probably gonners now..
The vehicle details for J603 KJF are:

Date of Liability 01 11 2002
Date of First Registration 01 08 1991
Year of Manufacture 1991
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1998CC
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour WHITE


The vehicle details for L929 ARY are:

Date of Liability 20 02 2006
Date of First Registration 01 01 1994
Year of Manufacture 1994
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 2088CC
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type Heavy Oil
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour GREEN

[xmexclusive]

Hi Dieselman

There is about 30mm more headroom in an estate as they raised the roofline by that amount with the design. Estate doors have a glued-on plastic piece on the top to fill in and make the body lines look right.
Both Mk1's and Mk2's can suffer minor rusting particularly to the non treated components.
No real difference in reliability between 2.1 and 2.5 just that it is a bit easier to work on a 2.1 and the engine bits are a tad cheaper and easier to come by.
All XM's are now getting a bit old so well used, a few dents perhaps and the diesels, particularly estates tend to be fairly high mileage.
Most of us consider that for the current prices XM's are very good value motoring particularly if you can do most of the work yourself.

John

[Dieselman]

Thanks for that. I can't remember driving an estate, but probably have. I wish they made a hatch without a sunroof, no height issues then.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Dieselman

There are a small number of later UK estates made without sunroofs but I think they use the same roof lining profile so the headroom does not change. XM cars without sunroofs are much more common in europe but I suspect the same applies to the headlining and they are LHD of course.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on February 02, 2009 11:47 pm

[Peter.N.]

Hi Dieselman

Welcome to the club. Don't just look, come in and get your feet wet Some of the great things about running an XM as a classic is that it has all the comforts of a modern car but is still repairable on a DIY basis and is very durable both mechanically and and trim wise.

I take it form your user name that you are a diesel enthusiast. It was the refinement of the diesel engines that first brought me to Citroens, I think the CX was truly the first really with an unobtrusive diesel, it was only after I had owned my first one for a while that I realised what a fantastic car they were.

Prior to my first CX, I had run a variety of diesel conversions, my first was to fit a Perkins 4/99 engine to a Vauxhall Cresta in about 1960, after a few of those engines the 4/108 came out with its heady 52 bhp, I fitted those to a variety of cars, the samllest being a Vauxhall Viva and the largest a Granada estate, with a selection of different gearboxes and axles - and then the CX came along, rendering further conversions superflous.

I personally like the 2.1 manual. its not as fast or smooth as the 2.5 but as John said, easier to work on and better cheaper parts availability, the fuel consumption is also a little better, 40-50 mpg being my norm - but I don't drive very fast.

I certianly could not wish for a nicer car, but they are getting a bit thin on the ground now, so be prepared to travel.

I run mostly estates because of the huge load space, I was a TV engineer before I retired and I could get three 28" CRT type TVs behind the back seat!

Peter.N.

[Dieselman]

Hi Peter and thanks.

I'm a diesel nutcase, really can't be bothered with petrols anymore just because diesel is so simple and gives great low down torque.

My XM 2.1td auto was my first diesel and even though I caned it everywhere it returned about 33 mpg, once I worked a half tank out to 56mpg and that was cruising at 80 for a couple of hunderd miles.
I loved that car and can't get XM's out of my blood, hence thinking about one now as a second car.

I became a diesel headcase after working on my Brothers Pug 305 which he bought with a blown HG. It smoked like a bonfire on wheels..
He'd done the gasket but couldn't get it to start, so I went over and shimmed the valves and off it went, just had to reset the pump as someone had wound the anti stall bypass right up to keep it running with blown gasket.
It still smoked like crazy for a week but the fuel economy was great, 50-60 mpg.

Talking of load space, can someone measure the load bed with the seats down on both a hatch and an estate please..
I've got a requirement for long loads to go in and am not sure the hatch will be long enough.

Are the 2.5 engines eight valve units?

[Peter.N.]

Hi Dieselman

I think that the 2.1 with the Bosch mechanical pump is probably the best IDI engine ever made, its more economical than the 1.9 and doesn't suffer with head cracking syndrome and the low down torque is something else.

I will try and remember to measure the cars tommorrow. I went to buy a carpet last week and forgot I was in the hatch - it just went in.

As far as I know there was never an 8 valve 2.5, they didn't come out until '94 when the Mk2 was released. The heads are very similar to the 2.1 but have more securing bolts.

Peter.

This post has been edited by Peter.N. on February 03, 2009 11:57 pm

[Dieselman]

So are the 2.5 engines 12 valve then.? Ah, I think you've answered my query in your edit. Thanks

I'm sure head cracking and gasket failure is down to air locks, old antifreeze and leaky radiators.

With reasonable care they don't go. In my opinion most HG failures on any car are down to old antifreeze where the anticorrosion additives are expired.

This post has been edited by Dieselman on February 03, 2009 11:58 pm

[Peter.N.]

You are correct. The 2.1 has the thermostat in the radiator return, at the bottom of the engine, so when you fill it all the air comes to the top and into the header tank.

I think you are right about the head gaskets too. the one on my green estate failed at about 120k, when I removed it, it practically fell to pieces through corrosion, I have just bought one with 149k and lots of antifreeze which is perfect - at the moment.

[Peter.N.]

You are correct. The 2.1 has the thermostat in the radiator return, at the bottom of the engine, so when you fill it all the air comes to the top and into the header tank.

I think you are right about the head gaskets too. the one on my green estate failed at about 120k, when I removed it, it practically fell to pieces through corrosion, I have just bought one with 149k and lots of antifreeze which is perfect - at the moment.

[Peter.N.]

Sorry about that, thought it hadn't posted.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Dieselman

The 2.5 engine is 12 valve (2 inlet, 1 exhaust). It also has axial suspension for the two main engine mounts with secondary rubber engine rotation bump stops at the top and bottom. The engine also has two rotating balance shafts driven by a secondary cam belt. This gives a remarkably smooth running engine. The cooling system is rather convoluted and prone to airlocks if not bled as specified using a header tank. Some cylinder head cracking has been reported as a result of extended running with airlocks present. These cars have a superb hydraulic clutch but clutch changing is a bit more difficult or expensive than usual. A look though a copy of the Haynes XM manual would be worth your while.

As for load space inside the estate has an extra 250mm length at boot floor level and about 900mm more at tailgate hinge level. To get very long narrow loads in both cars and estates you can easily remove the rear seat base, tip the rear seat back down, run the front passenger seat fully forward and drop the seat back to level. This then becomes a extension of the boot floor area and 3 metre plus stuff will fit easily just need to use the front passenger seat belt to keep it over that side as you swing round the bends. If the car has split rear seats (not all XM cars do) then loaded like this you can still take a passenger in the seat behind the driver.

Best of luck with your XM search.

John

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on February 04, 2009 12:32 pm

[Citroenmad]

Welcome to the forum

Headroom is slightly limited on the hatch if your very tall, as said there is more space in the estate. Although if this is to be a 'hobby' car, much like mine is to me, then a hatch would be a nicer choice?

Im all for diesels, although i like my petrol Xm, its very refined, quiet and smooth, the engine is as sweat as a nut! Although i do prefer the torque of a diesel, most of our cars are diesels, but it makes a nice change to get into the petrol Xm. Plus as its not used every day, economy is not high on the list.

Do you want a manual or an auto, or are you not bothered? The majority of 2.1TD are automatics or so it seems, ive not seen too many 2.1 manuals for sale, especially in the estate, which if Peter.N hasnt already said, the 2.1 Manual Estate is a very rare car, i think citroen only brought about 70ish to the UK?

If you want an auto, then the 2.1 is the only choice. The 2.5s are all manuals, so are easier to find, but a lot have been to the moon and back a few times! That says it all for their reliability though.

If i had my ideal choice of Xm, it would be a lower mileage 2.5 hatch. Ill never part with my petrol hatch though, i like it too much!

There are a few rust issues, nothing major. Namely around the wheel arches, it seems S2 estates are more prone to that than hatchbacks and S1 models. The sills can bea bit weak, so make sure you check those.

Good luck with your search