Slow To Rise, Eager To Click

Hi folks. My first question here, be gentle!

I have a '97 2.0i SX showing 43,000 documented miles. It's fairly evident the car hasn't lead an abused life but the only servicing it's had over the last four to five years has involved cheap oil and a filter.

Problem is: while the car will rise to its full height from normal running very easily, it's strangely uneager to do so after being dropped to the lowest point. You actually have to get into it (well, fall into it would be a better description) and drive off before it thinks about rising. Takes a good fifth of a mile to settle into feeling right again.

It may be related, but if you muck about with the ride height settings there's a pronounced and regular ticking or clicking noise from under the bonnet. I've heard this described variously as a sphere on its way out, a pump on its way out, or a regulator on its way out. Anyone know which it is that's on its way out?

Much obliged.

If this is all old hat and something you could in fact tell me more about, just say!!

The lowest setting on the hydraulics will depressurise the hydraulic circuit completely
so it will take a good while (some minutes) to fully fill the circuit back up to the 1500psi
fluid pressure that all the various circuits - steering, brakes and suspension need to
run effectively.

The clicking you refer to is the hydraulic regulator priming the pressure back into the
system feeding gulps of high pressured fluid back into the whole system, fed from the
constant pump that is variable due to changing revs/load of the engine. If the 'damping'
sphere attached to the regulator (called the accumulator) is flat the system will have far
more work to get everything up and on it's feet again! Under normal height running, the
frequency of the clicking (opening of the high pressure LHM pump's pressure feed) gives
an idea of the state of health of the accumulator. A short duration between clicks indicates
the requirement for a new sphere to be fitted on the regulator - seen on the front of the
engine beneath the starter motor.

I wouldn't drive the car any distance on the lowest setting as some damage could be
inflicted (if not to the hydraulics) to the flat underside of the car. The likelihood is the
higher engine revs by driving the car are in fact helping repressurise the hydraulic
system. Certainly to help get things going faster a blip of the engine's revs helps speed
the production of pressure!

Andrew

This post has been edited by Andmcit on October 28, 2008 12:12 am

Thank you very much Andrew.

The other Hydractive cars I've come into contact with don't tick at all, so I had no idea what on earth was going on - only vague recollections of horror stories about the DS.

On any normal journey, I don't hear the XM tick. It was only after working the lever on the centre console that the noise became apparent, and it was certainly a very regular noise - perhaps once per second. From what you've said, I'm not sure if this is indicative of anything. It could just be that the system had been 'stressed' by my messing about with it, if indeed that is possible.

Your comment about driving on the lowest setting is noted. I tend to leave the cars flat to allow our ancient doggy to clamber in and out with greater ease, but rarely drive off in that state because it's like driving a bloody Audi.

Bounce, bounce, bounce

This post has been edited by ThwartedEfforts on October 28, 2008 12:18 am

It does sound like your accumulator sphere is on its last legs. The click should only happen a few times when pumping up from low to normal.

If you know all its had in the last 4 years are basic oil and filter changes then id recommend you get the spheres checked and (if possible) regassed. Regassing should be done every 3 years or 30K miles. Once a sphere gets too low on pressure its not safe to repressure them with more gas, so it will need new ones.

From what you say it does seem it rides ok, so if your others are down a little they should be fine to recharge. It will also vastly improve the cars ride too.

Yup, best not to drive it until its pumped up, if there isn't enough pressure to raise the car it will also mean your brakes and steering have limited assistance too.



This post has been edited by Citroenmad on October 28, 2008 12:34 am

Some minutes ?!?

Mine goes up (the car!)

1. in about 15secs from an overnight bottoming-out

2. in about 45secs-1minute from a lever-induced bottoming after a good pressure-releasing interval.

Needed about 2 minutes for 2. before hydraflushing and tunning the regulator's pressure output. Was also doing a loud siren-like noise from the rear when developing pressure. It needed about 40secs-1min for 1.

So could it be that your...hydraulics need a good flushing Andrew?

cheers
G

Well, in the past it has been known to take an absolute age to lift after a full depressurisation!
I don't sit with a stop watch timing it but wanted to emphasise the wait needed to get things going
again! I think the absolute eternity it takes to get an Activa up to correct running height has jaded
me somewhat and I've been running one a lot lately!!

Andrew

Thanks all. Will live with the car a little longer and keep an eye on things. To me the ride seems spot on and the only issues occur when I meddle with levers

The YouTube video in jorgy9's signature is how soft I like my suspension. How's that done then? Citroenmad said you could add pressure to the spheres but I have no clue as to how you'd go about achieving that.

EDIT: Found the information elsewhere on the site. http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showto...indpost&p=29352

This post has been edited by ThwartedEfforts on October 28, 2008 09:56 am

I do recall reading somewhere that the new sphere design employed on the C5 is different
to earlier spheres and incompatible with recharging techniques though have no way to
confirm this as fact unfortunately, but yes, a chat with Westroen or Pleiades regarding
recharging a higher pressure is a worthwhile conversation to have!

Andrew

http://www.westroen-spheres.co.uk/
Phone: 0161 881 1061
Mobile: 07719 600893 / 07719 628961
E.Mail Westroen5@msn.com

http://www.citroen-hydraulics.com/
Phone: 01487 831239 Email: enquiries@citroen-hydraulics.com

Yes your right Andrew,

I think im right in saying: (copied from another thread)
Unfortunately no, you can't add pressure to your C5. All C5s (from S1 to S3) & C6s have sealed spheres, they last around 5 years (during which time the suspension slowly gets a bit harder and harder) and then you throw them away and buy new replacements.

This is also the way with normal/older citroens, which you can regass, People live with them for say 5 years without doing anything to the spheres. They think the suspension is fine as they have not noticed the gradual loss in psi to their spheres. Once regassed its amasing the difference - my XM is very very soft indeed, but still corners very nicely thanks to the sports setting and the fact its mainly the soft spheres that we have added pressure to.

Actually ThwartedEfforts, a good way to test the pressure in your acc. sphere is to:

Run the car for a few minutes to make sure the pressure is built up, have the car at normal height, turn off the engine and go round and either stand on the tow bar if you have one or sit in the boot. Make sure you keep your weight on it for a good few seconds.

The car should rise to normal height again, just using the pressure in that sphere. It should work after just turning the engine off, a while after and it wont pump back up anway.

If the spehere is low on pressure it wont pump up, either at all or very slight. If its low then this could cause the clicking.

You may (or may not if the spehere is low on pressure) have noticed that when filling the Xm with fuel, the car sinks down, but then pumps itself back to normal again as your filling it up?

Thank you for the information on the C5 guys. For a moment I was genuinely excited! I really don't like the way most modern cars ride and the S3 C5 is as close an approximation I can get with a new car. Supposedly the new Skoda Superb is a real bump smoother, but I think I'll pass. Have you seen it? At least XMs aren't ugly and dull

As for my spheres, here's what I did and what happened:

1. I started the car from cold just now. It had been left overnight.
2. As usual it was super slow turning over but also super quick to fire - not sure if this is a characteristic or a poo battery
3. About 15 seconds of nothing but engine noise. Then rapid clicking, two per second, and the short rise to full height took only a few seconds. It really wasn't slow once it got going.
4. The clicking afterwards is about once every 30 seconds, no more.
5. Turning off the car and bouncing on the rear has the back compressing nicely and returning to its original height.
6. The front strikes me as ten times stiffer and is hard to compress altogether.

Anyway, that's it. Thanks for your continued interest!

Yes id say your accumulator sphere is about finished. You should not get that many clicking noises. I think the clicking noises are your pump cutting in and out, this is not good for your pump!

I didn't mean bounce on the back, i ment to put your weight on the back until the car starts to rise itself with the engine off - as a way to test the accumulator pressure. Although i doubt it will with the accumulator sounding the way it does.

The front and the back should be similar, i think the front is very slightly stiffer. Although do you know if it was in sport mode or softwhen you were pressing on it?

When you turn the Xm off and get out the car, its still in soft mode, but after a minute or so there is a click, this is the system going into sport mode. It will then be much stiffer to press.

Oh, i saw a new Superb last night, thankfully it was dark! They are hideous, i can't decide if the boot is a good or bad idea, but its ugly! Cars should not have more overhang at the rear than the front Its all wrong.

The clicking noise isn't the pump - as I said earlier, the pump runs constantly driven by the aux belt
at whatever speed the driver/load determines! It then needs the regulator to control the high
pressure feed so therefore the frequency of the valve opening and closing is the actual noise you can
hear! The sphere attached to it is the reservoir that cushions the pocket of high pressure fluid.

Andrew

This post has been edited by Andmcit on October 28, 2008 04:30 pm

Thanks for putting me right

Im learning, slowly