14k Mile 1 Owner '90 Xm 2.0 Sei

This is all just my opinion, so don't get too exercised about it, please!!

In my opinion, a car doesn't "become" a classic just because a few die-hards want to maintain it regardless of it's faults or drawbacks. It either is a classic or it isn't. For example, some people would say that anything that is now rare is a classic. Ford Cortina Mk4 What on earth does it have that could possibly merit the word classic? Not pretty, not comfortable, not fast, not particularly reliable when new, handles like a cow on rollerskates. Despite all this, some people (mostly Cortina owners) would have you believe they are classics just because there aren't many left.

My personal definition of a classic would involve something along the lines of:
- a car that moved the automotive world to somewhere new
- aesthetic and/or dynamic qualities that were/are above the common herd
- exclusivity when new

I think you'd need 2 out of 3 of those, with some exceptions. Above all though, to me a classic is a car that has appeal outside the small band of fanatics that nearly all cars - even M4 Cortinas - attract. Perhaps it's a car that the ordinary motorist would look at and be able to understand immediately why someone would want to spend play money on it, and could see why it is desirable without having to have it explained in too much detail.

I realise this knocks out a huge number of the cars people seem to regard as classics, but I think the word has become debased to mean anything old that is a bit hard to come by, and that, to me, is wrong.
/rant

Neil

But the XM was aesthetically different to many of the mainstream cars of the time and it did to an extent have some degree of exclusivity when new wouldnt you agree?
I think the thing is, one mans deffinition of a 'classic' is not another's, i for instance would not call a mini a classic, it was built to be as cheap as humanly possible to buy and run and they sold like hot cakes for that specific reason and no other, many would disagree with me there but it's all down to opinion i suppose.
I would say the XM is pretty much a classic due to the fact that whenever i take it into town during the summer i almost always get someone stop to talk about it, and if not talk then stop briefly for a good look.............maybe the isle of wight is just full of nutters .

D

This discussion could go on for ever, but I just wanted to make a few point about the Mini. If there is a nailed-on 24 carat British classic, it's the Mini. It wasn't built to be as cheap as possible, in fact Austin-Morris/BL/Rover lost money on every one they sold. It was a radical breakthrough in packaging efficiency, it looked better than any other car in it's class and as a bonus it was dynamically spectacular. Add to that the instant cool conferred by the Chelsea crowd and all the pop stars, and bingo!

Now the XM. The Hydractive issue is a complete red herring unless you're talking about estate cars, when the self-levelling becomes useful. Several manufacturers managed ride/handling compromises as good if not better with steel springs and conventional dampers. The looks are an acquired taste, I'd grant you distinctive and the basic proportions are great, but the body is incredibly fussy. Far too much going on for it to be beautiful. Dynamically it's above average for it's class at the time, but not spectacular. Exclusivity? When it was a new model in 1990, an unusual choice in the UK, but pretty popular in Europe. Exclusivity is not conferred by no-one wanting to buy it!
Overall, the XM was a decent, slightly quirky car in it's day. Classic? Not in my opinion

A bloke I know who was there looking at a Mercedes emailed me this this evening on the XM:

"Ha Ha the Citroen XM....Well the bidding stopped at £2500, which I thought was mildly surprising.....they didn't even submit the bid...had it been me selling the car I would have snapped their arm off!!! To make matters worse it was a very dull burgundy red and smelt like something had died inside it."

I could not agree more, thats exactly what i was trying to say.

A classic car is not one to be liked by all, i mean how many people hate 2cvs and others would not have anything else. That is not a car that a lot of people would look at and instantly know why the owner has it.

Its about your personal taste, i think the XM has what it takes, plus the way citroen is going its hydropneumaitc suspension will not be around for much longer on its future cars, which will make the Xm even more attractive.

Its quirky, individual and has a good following - to name a few. I think it will make it, although will any Xms actually be around to see it! There are less and less everyday.

Not all classic cars are worth less than their parts, it depends on the car, how rare and different it is.

Its true, a Ford Cortina is a odd thought as a classic car, but it is classed as one. It was a very popular every day car which sold in great numbers ... the equivalent of our current Focus maybe ...

Dont forget, topgear branded the Xm as a future classic, and they are never wrong

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on October 22, 2008 12:20 am

Hi Neil and All

I keep on getting the same question from people I speak to, re. the self-levelling feature of my car's "weird" suspension: "Why do I need this, I rarely load more that a passenger in my car?!" Or the other one: some people know that Citroens are winning again and again the "Best Towing Car" awards but then they ask: "why do I care, I never tow!". Actually, the fact that they win these awards is just an extreme situation where this suspension shows how effective it is, it doens't mean that it is especially good for towing only!!

Without offence Neil, you need to do your reading. Your statement sadly reflects what most people believe about this type of suspension. I realised these facts myself after years of driving a Citroen; it's not obvious, nobody tells you about it, not even Citroen. If more people understood the importance of this suspension to road safety and accident avoidance capability, Citroens would have a different fate. Sadly even among die-hards of the brand, many believe that the hydropneumatics provide just "a lovingly soft" suspension. Then Citroens are branded "granpa-cars" from uneducated people who have been led to think that a hard suspension is a good suspension...the very same generation that believes that that sticking a K&N free flow filter will add hp while it only adds noise and probably hp drops a bit with consumption increasing, unless you have seriously worked to change the cam timings and freeded the exhaust to retune the engine's breathing.

Well, firstly, Citroen's research has decided that a car's suspension needs ideally a travel of 18cm in total, thus 9cm each way. Thus they chuck in the self-levelling which makes that the supension is always at the ideal middle position having 9cm of available travel both ways, at all times.

Second, but not least important, this makes that suspension geometry always works near the ideal position. Thus freeing suspension designers from the constraint and compromise of having to cater for all possible suspension positions and end up with a geometry that is finally a bad compromise. Or make sure that the suspension won't have much travel around the ideal set up, thus delivering the horribly hard cars we are getting now. I'd call this a huge step in suspension effectiveness. I don't see why u think this is useful in Estates only; my hatch corrects height even at the front when I go out of the car; if your car doesn't, it means something is wrong with yours.

Third, and again not least important: handling. Few people understand that the spheres+oil offer a PROGRESSIVE SPRING RATE suspension, as opposed to spring coils which are "stupid" and offer a constant spring rate, just 1 spring rate. This is because of gas-pressure behavior when you compress it in volume. This makes that the car is absolutely equally hard with 1, or with 5 passengers and a full boot, ie it gets harder as u load kilos, equally to the kilos youl load. Attention: it doesn't get *relatively* harder than before, i.e. it won't *feel* harder with 5 people; it becomes exactly as hard as it needs for the added weight to finally feel the same as when only you were in. And this is a constant process that happens naturally, without any electronics... While in a coil car again you have to come to a hardness compromise that has to be: hard enough to carry 5 and full boot, but not so hard as to be tooth shacking with driver only. Again u see around you the choices manufacturers make: others go for filthy hard to ensure car will be controllable on full load. Others go for softer solutions to satisfy average daily driving (1 person) and those are the cars you see pumping or floating around as soon as they load any rear passengers. And their accident avoidance capabilities are equal to a "cow on rollers" (liked this) if u load 4 people and boot. Acceptable if u drive in the US, not good for EU.

Fourth, the obvious, comfort: the progressive hardening of gasses make it that you can go for a suspension that is ridiculously soft at its first cms of travel, thus ironing the road, but it hardens up the bigger the wheel's motion becomes. That's Citroen's choice set up. Anybody can configure his set up as he likes, softer or harder. The link between comfort and hydropenumatics is spurious in the sense that it doesn't need to be so. Audi could use hydropneumatics and make its tooth-shacking suspensions. But then you'd ommit one huge opportunity that it offers. It is not necessary actually to make it hard, as this need is only there due to the desired compromises that have to be attained with a spring set up (as above).

Fifth, another benefit of the gas vs. steel coils: gas inertia. When pressurised, a gas has a lesser tendency to bounce back than a coil. The gas just tends to return to its initial pressure. The coil wants to bounce further. Thus a gas-based suspension will achieve better tyre contact wit the road than a coil of exact same spring rate, on a rough pavement. Very-very important.

Sixth, there is not other suspension that provides the bonus of changing spring and/or damping characteristics on your car in a matter of minutes, just by changing spheres or inflating them at different pressures. And it can be done at home. Have you seen the clamps they need to do you a spring or absorber change at the garage?

Seventh, the "red herring", the Hydractive. This component has come and got rid of the only glitch of this suspension someone could possibly come with: it's "too soft" for good handling. Well actually, a CX achieves the same lateral G-forces on the "Circle" as any other good car car of its age (I of course have hard data). Second, the softness is a basic element in securing good grip IN REAL LIFE CONDITIONS (don't ask me why F1 have hard suspension!): a soft suspension absorbs bumps, while a hard one will make the tyre loose contact with the road at some point. Third, if you speak of slaloming, the tendency to lean so much of the old "too soft" Citroens, does not in fact hampers their ability compared to a coil-car. the opposite. Whoever has driven a Citroen wil have felt this feeling of complete composure and calmness no matter how much you torture the car. Try a quadriple slalom (ie 4 consequitive changes of direction) with a good modern car: few drivers would manage to keep it on the road. Not the case with a hydropneumatic Citroen. That's again related to the mechanical characteristics of a steel spring vs. gas.

Despite this, the Citroen set up of hydraulically linking the two front wheels and the two rear, produces to much leaning in turns (although it has a specific comfort and body control benefits on the straight line). The Hydractive has got rid of this by cancelling this linking whenever it reverts to its hard mode. Second, there is no other suspension that provides BOTH spring and damp control (unless u have £50-60,000 or more to spend on an Air-suspension car). Most modern "adjustable" coil suspensions only control damping. Which is like comparing a shed to a palace....Anyway, the effectiveness of they Hydractive is phenomenal. You are now getting a Rolls Royce AND an Aston Martin in one car. And it's a Rolls when things are easy, but turns to an Aston Martin within 3/100 of the second whenever needed. And it does this all day. You don't realise it as you drive along, do you? I don't. Together with the other secrets of the Citroen set up, the Hydractive achieves the previously impossible: A 1400kg family car can slalom like a Lotus Elan (named the best handling front-wheel drive car by many). And this, on thinner tyres! You will have seen the video but here it goes for those who haven't:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gVPXgvOl0xc

If you think that "this was the 90s', now cars are better", let me inform you this is not the case. No matter how many times irresponsible (or bribed) journalists will write "the coil suspension has come a long way and equaled or surpassed the hydropneumatics", this will never happen because it's against natural law. FYI the C6 is still the fastest car by far at slaloming. In a slalom where it passes at 77km/h, the equivalent 5-series BMW FOUR WHEEL DRIVE (the 530Xi) is SLOWER by a few km/h. Lexuses etc are all much lesser (have hard data of course). And the C6 is still dubed "a boring soft french barge...." Speaking of people not realising what is happening to themselves and the natural world around them! If I keep on refering to slaloming, it's because this is the test that uncovers all design weaknesses and separates good cars from bad cars. Most cars can nowdays take 1 turn fine (didn't use to be the case!) but try 2 consequitive opposed turns to see the balance of many being thrown out of the window and the directional control lost. A slalom or a half-slalom, possibly combined with braking, is what you will typically do when trying to avoid most types of accidents.

The only thing you need to do if you think your XM starts slipping too easily is go one size up your tyres. I've tried just to see, it and the grip difference is great. There's nothing else that needs be done to "modernise" an XM. Mind you: you will have upset the balance of the system as a whole. That's why I reverted to the standard size.

Eighth: a schock absorber looses efficiency through its life, hydropneumatics dampers don't. Just the spring rate becomes harder as the sphere looses pressure.

Ninth, but it's a detail really compared to the above: you can load/unload easily heavy objects thanks to the height control.

I'd call most of the above advantages "very important" for the daily driver and probably the most significant leap in suspension effectiveness since the coil spring has replaced the leaf spring.

Lastly, if we leaved in a fair world, where rewards goes to who deserves it, not to young executives who manage to create shareholder value by screwing up the planet, Citroen would have been given a big award for supplying this feature for so many years AT A PRICE AFFORDABLE BY ALL OF US. There's no other company that has given so much to the people, in reality. Rolls Royce is the only other cars allowed to the hydroneumatic suspension (they pay royalties to Cit for decades now). Similar other suspensions are otherwise only reserved to rich people and it's not going to get better, the opposite.

cheers
George

ps. to all that wonder "What's he doin at 3.55am suddenly writting a page on hydraulics", the answer is, I'm sick and tired from writing up my PhD thesis 24/7 -this will go like that till April 2009- so I thought I'll take a break and try to contribute to the forum...in my favourite topic... ;-) I miss the forum!!

This post has been edited by jorgy9 on October 22, 2008 04:57 am

George,
I agree with every part of your technical analysis, have done my reading, and I do love Citroens. I made my living repairing them, amongst other more "exotic" cars, for many years. The part I don't necessarilt agree with is the bit about it being a very important feature for most everyday drivers. In the early 70's, the Jaguar XJ6 was widely reckoned to have the best ride/handling compromise of any car. OK they ruined the package by giving it massively over-assisted steering, but the ride in a good XJ6 is still magical, and the handling superb once you get used to the lightness and lack of feel in the steering. Remind you of anything? DS? CX? I've owned a DS, a GSA, several CX, a Xantia and even an SM as well as the XM's, and the only car I've still got as a classic alongside my everyday XM is my faithful 1970 Daimler Sovereign 4.2

Something else Top Gear has said many times is that if you have to spend hours explaining something, it's automatically uncool!

Each to his own, and I appreciate the technical merits of the Citroen setup, but it's a backwater in automotive development. I still think the word "classic" is overused by owners of mundane, mediocre machinery to try to talk up the value of their pride and joy.

Not trying to persuade anyone here, just expressing an opinion. If you want to view the XM as a classic, fine. For me, it's an estate car that does the job of being an estate better than any other, and that's why I keep it.

Neil

You only need to watch that clip from the old topgear of the slalom text between the XM, granada and lotus to see how good citroens suspension is.

Ive had people say a couple of times how they have narrowly avoided an accident, but they felt had they been in any other car they would not have been so lucky.

I love the way the Xm rides, but put it into sport and its keeps much better control of its body roll than a lot of modern cars. Which are just set up for handling and give a very hard ride in everyday driving.

The self leveling is a great feature, as said it maintains the comfort with a full load of people on board as it does when empty. When most coil sprung cars would be bouncy along on their bump stops.

The fact that citroens win tow car of the year is a lot to do with how citroens suspension helps the stability of the car and caravan. You often see coil cars towing caravans with the rear bumper near the floor and the front of the car very high - which doesnt exactly give you much confidence to look at, it looks very unsafe and very unstable, not to mention the ride will be awful.

Citroens are a lot to do with ride comfort, not many coil cars get close to the comfort at all. If they do they tend to lean heavily in corners which is not stable.

With the citroen you get the best of both worlds. A nice soft ride, which tightens during hard driving and maintains the cars stability. Im not saying its the best handling car, i know the steering lacks feedback, but its a great comprimise and for me it can not be beaten. Especially the Xantia Activas, they will out drive a lot of faster, much more sports set up cars.

We have always had atleast on citroen in the family with hydropneumatic suspension, and we have one of citroens very first, which to drive is like a modern car, very driect (infact the steering is much more direct than most modern cars) The ride is superb and the handling is pretty good too.

Overall, coil cars are boring, they are either too hard but handle well or too soft and dont handle. The citroen is different and thats what i like.

No other car comes close!

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on October 22, 2008 10:17 am

It's suspension was important to my everyday driving over last few weeks. I have a lot of roundabouts on dual carriage ways on my way to work. I drive it fast too. I have been thinking that it was getting a bit noisy when turning right at roundabouts at 40+ but put that down the the less than ideal tyres I have on the front.

However, yesterday when filling up I realised it was a few weeks since I checked my tyre pressures and one looked a bit low. 3 of my tyres were down to 20psi - that is one third down on pressure. Had I been in an 'average' car I doubt I would have stayed on the road so well in recent days. Certainly not when the regular idiots don't look and push you out of your lane on the motorway or pull into the 3rd lane right in front of you when you are 3 meters behind them doing 30mph more (and I don't mean they are doing 70, but I get that round here when I am doing 70 and they have no reason to change lanes!).

That is everyday driving - you forget to check your tyres and still drive it as you always do and still have to take the same evasive action at times at motorway speeds due to others actions. It is just you don't notice it when the car takes it in it's stride, but you would certainly notice it if the car couldn't

I have been in a car that rolled at normal speeds on a tight bend due to a puncture. I know from experience how much we rely on the suspension not only to handle what we expect, but to handle the unexpected.

A BMW of any sort post '76 is the most overated pile of rubbish ever, badly made, poor quailty materials , proof that good marketing can sell anything to the gullible

Stewart

Well the XM was the first of even now a handfull of cars to have active suspension, even if it was not as comlpex as the activa, hydractive is active suspension! that makes is more advanced than anything other than the later citroens.

I don;t think anyone can claim the styling was average...

And it was rare then, its even rarer now, so it qualifies on all counts.. which a german cortina does not..

Stewart

Oh dear, have I upset you? I guess you must be right and the rest ogf the world wrong. Whether you like them or not, BMW's are certainly not bad cars, and saying it very loud don't make it so.

You clearly didn't take the time to read what I said. Being advanced is not the issue. The rest of the automotive world has pretty much ignored Citroen's hydraulics (yes I know there are some exceptions, please don't list them, that's why I said pretty much), so it hasn't taken the world to somewhere new in the way that, for example, the Model T did.

I never said the styling was average, I just don't happern to think it's looks put it up there with the greats.

And it was rare then because not many people wanted it. It's rare now because it costs a lot in time and/or money to maintain it, and not many people want to do it. That doesn't make it exclusive, it makes it unsucessful.

I like the XM, and as I said will not part with my 2.5 estate, but I'm not blinkered enough to overlook all the faults and regard it as a classic. It's an old car that I run because it happens to do everything I need, and there isn't a new car that will do the job. Sorry if you're offended by realism.

Neil

Few classic cars dont have faults! Thats what makes them interesting!

The fact that the hydractive suspension did not be a huge sucess is a lot down to the cost, it costs a lot for citroen to make and a lot for the cars owners to maintain.

Although its worth maintaining, nothing rides quite like a well looked after XM.

Xms seem to have a big following, once you have had one your usually going to have another one, or a few at the same time. That, at least, must say somehting about the Xm.

I supose we will have to agree to disagree, as we both have XMs for different reasons, so we think differently about them. Although i think we can all say, they are a very good car.

Understated is a good word for the Xm, not many people know about them, or the suspension system they have. Which is great, im also fairly pleased the Xm was not a massive sales hit, as it being rare (for what ever reason) is something i also like about the XM. Id hate to have a car which i would see another 10 on the road that day. Boring!

I for one think its a great car, and a real bargin now.

The C6 is not a sales hit, but its a great car and one id reallly like to own in the future.

Oh and no, its not realism, its your opinion! This is of course my opinion, so no one is right or wrong, but i think the Xm maybe deserves a little more credit than you seem to give it.

Yes Xms are getting on now, it still does not make us like them any less!

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on October 22, 2008 04:25 pm

Hi Neil

Well, the thing is, once they have been explained, the merits of this suspension type cannot be ignored (unless somebody consciously chooses to leave an irrational kind of life), because, as I tried to show, they indeniably represent *measurable values*, not hype, or rumour, or urban legend, or misconception, like so many things that surround our everyday reality. It's not a case of "my opinion" or "your opinion"...

To this extent, I'd think that this suspension type is important to the daily driver exactly to the point that driving a safe car is important. Same as driving a car with airbags and ABS Vs. one without these. Not more, not less. How important you think is this for you? Very? Not at all? You choose, obviously! But the effectiveness of the thing cannot be argued, it is not a topic to argue about, we cannot change the numbers, simple as that.

Now, "how strange it feels", "it's too soft", "I don't like it so wallowy", *these* are things that are open to argument, as they are similar to "I like Victorian architecture", "I like modern architecture". But then you enter the realm of emotions... As you also pointed out, I, like many I guess, would like Citroens to have a little more direct feeling at the steering...but this becomes a minor issue since I know the handling *is* effective no matter what I feel. Still, I don't think I'll ever really like it.

Also, to show what a weird bitch life is (allow me), no matter if one believes "it is not too important", this suspension still will do its job and might save him from having an accident that he wouldn't have avoided with another car. Then again, one might continue believing that it was not a significant factor...one could even go and think and really believe that "huh!! this car has been crap in helping me avoiding the accident, next car I'll buy is sure a VW"...but it won't be true.

Of course there are people driving around in old Beetle's because, for their own reasons, it gives them a value to do so, a feeling of pleasure. But that's another thing, it's not about reality anymore, it's about emotions, perceptions etc.

Top Gear....? Not a fan anymore... Of course, sadly, their point is absolutely true and is precisely this psychological effect that ruins what people can achieve in this life and what this country can achieve as a whole. Unfortunately, learning will never be easy or fun. The things I see and hear from schools and in the university, are unbelievable...soon we will have to PAY students to motivate them to learn!

You said you've been reparing cars for years Neil, I take it you had a garage...sure you know what I'm talking about? My indie has been trying for 2 years to find an apprentice and they tried a few but they can't find a person that is able to focus his thought as much as needed to learn servicing a brake or writing a simple bill...At one point he even asked *me* if I wanted to work for them! Fortunately they have now found a guy whose parents should be proud of....

Ah! I don't really mind if XMs become classic or not...there are pros and cons in any car becoming a classic...I guess if it'll ever become one to the whole "classic community" (as opposed to "us here") it'll probably not be related to its suspension, same reason why as Citroen sales are much related nowadays to it having this suspension (although from what I read about the new C5, I'm getting the impression that people slowly re-discover its benefits).

It is Citroen's marketing error in this respect, that it didn't educate the world about the benefits of its suspension, really crap marketeers I'm telling you...If I were Citroen, I'd organise comparative track tests such as the Top Gear Youtube video, and invite all the press, every year!, to start with. Why being modest/silent/ashamed (nowadays!) about your major competitive advantage????

Regards
George