Fans, Relays And Display Lighting, intermittant faults

[xmexclusive]

I have just bought a 1995 XM 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive with 161k on the clock.
Being used to 2.5 TD's I was surprised that the suspension sinks overnight, is this normal? Now to the electrical problems.
1. A relay chatters under the passenger glove box. This happens sometimes just after the indicators are cancelled, chatter rate is at least twice as fast as is normal with indicators. Nothing seems to be operating as a result of the relay chatter.
2. After the engine warms up when the cooling fans cut in only the one on the drivers side rotates. Is this normal?
3. On start up sometimes all the display lights are so very dim that nothing can be seen, this includes the radio. For example the gear selection display cannot be read. Most of the time everything is bright on start up.
4. The LH display is in french except when displaying radio information. I have tried the 3 fuses listed in the drivers manual but this makes no difference whether they are in or out. This is dissapointing as this particular display has the fewest failed lines of any of my cars.

any help would be gratefully received

[Peter.N.]

I have a '96 2.1 td estate and that sinks overnight, I think its largly to do with the condition of the suspension hydraulics, some do, some dont.

The relay chatter I have had with two XMs, it seems to come and go, never found out what it was though, not very helpful I know but at least you know your not alone!

The cooling fans I think, usually run in a series parrallel arrangment, they both come on slowly at first but as the temperature increases they both come on at full speed, although if you have aircon you may have a different set up.

The display I cant be very helpful with either, only to say that I have had the same problem, on my previous XM the display was in German until you switched to "sport" suspension then it changed to French! I suspect that the fault is either a bad earth connection or faulty display

Hopefully someone can give you more helpful information, probably Noz.

Peter.N.

[noz]

Hi xmexclusive,

nothing like a challenge - eh?

I would have though that a 95 Exclusive would have had anti-sink. If you tell me the RP (ORGA) number I could probably confirm. Otherwise, does it have another sphere on top of the rear crossmember at the passenger side? It will only have a small 3.5mm hydraulic pipe going into it. You can't get it mixed up with the centre hydractive sphere because the two pipes entering the sphere block are much larger at 10mm or so. If it does have anti-sink and it still sinks then you have a leak. However, the source of the leak can only be limited in location. The whole point of anti-sink was to disconnect all the leaky parts when the car was not in use. In truth you really only have the struts or the anti-sink valve itself. With the car switched off and at rest, disconnect the rubber return hoses on the top of the reservoir one at a time. One of the hoses should be passing fluid back to the tank at a reasonable rate (pure judgment I'm afraid - but certainly more than zero). This of course assumes there's no leak on the once-clean monoblocks when you drive away in the morning. From the hose location on the reservoir we can work out which component is leaking.

If pursuing this further, can you please post in the Hydraulic section? Keeps thing nice and tidy.

Relay Chatter
There are a number of relays in this location. Just above the fusebox you have all the main relays. If you remove the glovebox you'll see a few more. Can you narrow it down a bit more? Are the headlights on at the time when it happens? Window wipers? Heater Blower? Any other symptoms to help narrow it down? When does it happen? Can you force it to happen?

Cooling fans
This is a classic XM fault. Above the passenger side headlight there are 3 relays (space for 4 though) for the fan control. Working right to left, as you look from the front of the car backwards, they are the main relay (operates both fans slowly) and the other two switch together to operate both fans to full speed simultaneously. Never should one fan operate without the other. Only three options exist, off, slow, fast. The three relays are mounted on a plastic carrier bracket and are pop riveted to the front apron. They are subject to all the elements since if driving in rain, the water is pushed past the headlight with the force of the air hitting the grille and headlights. The relay holders are not protected in the least and corrode readily. I did this job on my blue 2.5 on Saturday before I went towing the caravan. Didn't want to go towing with dodgy fans. By far the easiest repair is to drill out the three rivets which appear on the apron just above the nearside headlight. The plastic carrier complete with relays should pull forwards (towards the back of the car) until clear of the apron. Remove all three relays. You may have to prise them off with a screwdriver if corroded. The relays are all the same so you can't get them mixed up. (on the 2.5 only 3 out of the 4 relay positions are filled. The position nearest the offside is vacant. On other models this position may be used for A/C for example.) Clean up the relay spade connectors with a combination of wire brush, emery cloth and any other method you can think of. If you are really keen, take a metal nail file and chop the hook off the end. Inset the file in each of the female spade connectors one at a a time and give them a good clean. Next, using a very slim screwdriver or similar implement try to bend each connector together inside the plug for better grip of the relay spades. Coat the relay spade connectors in grease or some electrical anti-corrosion compound. Insert the relays back in the holder. Do not re-rivet yet. To test the relays, pull off the connector from the temperature sensor on the thermostat housing. On the 2.5 it is coloured brown and is located right at the very top of the housing. With the ignition on the fans should start on slow after about a 3 second delay. After a further 2 second delay they should go up to full speed. Only when you are sure the fans work properly should you re-rivet the plastic carrier back in place. Otherwise dismantle and repeat until they do work.

Dim LIghts
Sounds like an earthing problem to me. When the starter motor is turning it is taking in the region of 180 amps. The 180 amps must have a reasonably resistance free journey from the positive terminal of the battery, through the starter motor into the engine block and back from the engine block to the negative terminal of the battery. The lights on the dash (or any other electrical component for that matter) can show signs of being dim or running slow for two possible reasons. Either ther supply voltage is lower than it should be or the return earth path is somehow high in resistance. If something like the starter motor tries to get 180 amps back to the -ve terminal of the battery and there's a slight resisistance then everything else connected upstream of said resistance will see a small back voltage because all the current cant return to the battery fast enough. Therefore you may have 12 volts on one side of the dash bulbs but instead of zero on the other side (which would make them glow normally) you may have 1 or 2 volts. This causes the bulbs to glow less brightly since less current is passing through them. This of course would apply equally to the positive terminal but with slightly different symptoms. Check and clean and grease both battery terminals. Take them off, use emery to clean the inside of the teminal clamp and the outside of the termials on the battery (you need to know your radio code to get it back working again). Apart from the large black cable connected to the -ve terminal of the battery there are two smaller cables crimped into the same terminal clamp. A resistance can build up at this junction which could be verified with a meter. Remove the terminal clamp from the battery and hit it several times with a hammer supporting it on something solid. This squeezes the lead crimp tighter for a better grip of the cables.

French Display
There are thre fuses which control the display language. Unfortunately Citroen in their wisdom changed the 3 fuse numbers depending on model. Again the RP (ORGA) number should help. Either that or someone with an original V6 handbook.
Which fuse numbers have you been trying to change?

This should do as starters for 10. If any of the problems need further discussion to get to the root of them then post them in different topics to make searching by others with the same problem easier in future.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

noz

[xmexclusive]

Hi,
Thanks Peter and Nos for the quick replies.
1995 V6 Auto Exclusive with 162k the RPN is 6675

Fans
It was the fact that the temperature gauge went a little over 90 in heavy town driving that made me lstart the car while parked and lay in front of the bumper so that I could see when the fans started up. As only the drivers side cut in I needed to know if this was by design. Nos he say both should go so I will play the relay cleaning game and let you know the results.

Relay chatter
It happens when the indicators are cancelled. I see the in the latest issue of Citroenian that this may be caused by grease in the indicator switch going conductive. As this seems easier that taking out the glove box I will try this first.

Dim dash
Sometimes bright othertimes unreadable. This is from the first turn of the key, before the immobiliser code is entered and not associated with the use of the starter motor. If it is bright it stays bright until the engine is switched off. likewise if dim it stays dim.

French display
Fuses tried were those I looked up in the manual. Was it the right manual? well guess who has a single pile of about 12 XM manuals that I have collected over the last few years. I was outbid for the french one on ebay today so I will have a sort thorough and see if I can find the right one foe the V6.

Thanks for all the help

XMEXC

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

An update on the problems with my latest aqusition.
The fans do seem to be working correctly now as the engine temperature seems to be almost as well behaved ( a whisker below 90 ) as I have come to expect with 2.5 TD's. I had the aircon recharged today and will see if this causes any change.
The relay chatter has stopped as the car has been used a little more regularly.
The dim display now only seems to affect the auto aircon panel and I swapped this for a servicable one today. The gear selected repeater sometimes does not light up still its fun not knowing whether your going backwards or forwards. There was a crop of false lack of water/arret immediate displays but changing the sensor for a cleaned up spare cured these. Oh and the cost of the rear 3 sections of the exhaust will take some recovering from. Just the remotes, the locks, the front strut head and the manual suspension height control to sort now.
It goes at least as well as the 2.5's perhaps I should start looking for a 24valve.

Regards

XMexc

[mebedforduk]

Relay chatter.

Its the indicator stalk, and by the time you have sorted it, it will be the @*&%ing indicator stalk.

Removal - remove shroud from behind the steering wheel, jiggle the wheel up and down and it will expose the single screw holding the stalk in position. Un screw, un plug and have a cuppa.

The stalk will come to bits if you have three hands, remove shitty grease, clean up, spray with contact cleaner and refit.

Easy

Fans

Ive had the same problem as you - ie drivers side only at full pelt. Mines a 2.1 with AC and still only the three relays.
First relay is a 4 pin - main supply and earth and two control wires
Second relay the same
Third 5 pin switchable earth is the extra one. It either send the current in series or paralel.

Calum scott produced a hand sketch of the set up which I may be able to mail up load etc.

PO removed all the relay holders and replaced all with female spade connectors - a bloody mess. Both my fan motors work and yesterday both cut in correctly, now neither run. May be a fuse as the passenger side has a bent fin which made a dreadful noise and gruanched to a halt.

Display lights

Knackered rehostat? Pull it out (above your right knee) and jump the wires


Mark

To add to my woes the 2.5 now like to flash its Manglement light at me

[xmexclusive]

Hi Mark

Thanks for the suggestions. I will fish a rheostat switch and an indicator stalk out of the junk box (garden shed and garage) and see if I can clean them up.

Regards

XMexc

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

The replacement Air Con control panel has cured the flickering display. Not only that with the aircon now fully working I put the old control panel back in, it does not flicker any more, its just dead so perhaps it was on the way out anyway.
The recharged aircon lasted a whole day and then stopped working. Went back and an electrical fault was diagnosed, no power to the compressor. As a last check the gauge was put on the system and virtually all the gas had gone so the sensor was telling the electrics not to run the aircon. UV dye had been put in to pinpoint any leaks so this was going to be easy!!! Oh dear UV lights up spilt LHM just like the dye so everything stood out as leaking including the bits with no aircon pipes. A further conundrum was that the system seemed to be holding pressure. So we ended up just recharging it to see what happens over the next week or so.
The only remaining dash problems are the french LH display which persists whatever you do to the fuses and the auto gear selected light that does not always light up. This seems to be mainly associated with releasing the hand brake. Often it lights on releasing this break but sometimes it waits for a few gear changes and every now and again it just refuses to come up at all.
I do now have a regular ABS failure light so will have to play the sensor cleaning game.

Regards

XMexc

[JunKie123]

Had the relay chatter problem last year and found that if I flicked the indicators I could sometimes get it to stop. It all came to a head on the M5 when smoke started to come from the steering column. Fortunately turning off stopped the smoke and the chatter but I couldn't move the stalk any more.
Stripping the switch revealed the contacts burn and the supporting plastic melted. Careful use of epoxy glue and a fiberglass cleaning pencil sorted it out and all's been well since.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Splashwomble

Thanks for the information on your experience with smoking indicator stalks. I had decided that I could put up with a little bit of background noise for a while as it could not possibly do any harm. I was relying on flicking the indicators to stop the relay chatter. Looks like I need to avoid the M5 until I have the time to do a proper repair. I have spent the last two days trying to get a £40 new set of H/F remotes to work in a Mk2. I guess I will have to put that on hold.

Regards

XMexc