Slow Rising Rear Suspension, Series 1 XM 2.1TD

Hi all,

I'm collecting my "new" motor on Friday, a 93 series 1 2.1 TD Estate, 170K miles on the clock. It's my first XM, but I've had a couple of BX's before. It's an ebay special of course, but I've seen all the warnings and hey it was cheap....
I've had a good chat with the current owner, a nice bloke, and among all the good things, I know it has a couple of suspension probs, that might be related:

Flow Distribution valve
There is a weep from one of the "o"rings.

Suspension height
It can take a while to "get up" from the lowest height setting, but once there, stays up. If the height lever is shifted to the uppermost setting, it raises a bit more quickly.

Ride
The ride is a bit firm.

Recent New Suspension bits
It's a had a new Plaeides HP pump, accumulator, LM Fluid change and flush. I think I'm getting a s/h FDV with the car, which I guess I could get reconditioned.

The Questions

• - Is it likely that the FDV is responsible for all of these probs? Or is it more likely a combination of things - level controller, FDV and spheres?
  
• - Is it realistic for me to have a go at replacing the spheres & FDV myself? Or even overhauling a FDV myself ?It looks like there are overahul kits on eurocarparts...

I'm not complete car novice - I have done a bit of tinkering over the years, I know the basics of how they work, and I've done stuff like oil/coolant change/filters, and minor body/fittings fixes.
But I don't kid myself I'm any kind of expert and don't have a lot of tools in case I hit problems, so do you reckon it's realistic for me to have a go at replacing the spheres & FDV myself?
I guess they all look like needing some attention, especially the spheres. I'm thinking of the seized on nuts , rounded off, rusted in bolts on Sunday nights and all that kind of thing.
I'm not too far from the Plaeides place - it's about 30 miles - so if it did go horribly wrong I suppose I could get it taken there if things were desperate.

It's the usual conundrum:
Q - if you're brokish, why by a car with a reliability reputation problem that might cost a fortune to fix, esp. if you don't know you can do the expensive jobs yourself?
A - because it's a classy, advanced, cheap as chips motor with real character that can drive like nothing else
A -It's got a full MOT - no, a "proper one"
A - You can have always have a go at fixing that XXX yourself. It can't take all the rest of your life, can it?
A - Whatever happens it's going to be interesting
A - You never know, it might just be a good'un.

Any more answer suggestions?

Ade

Hi Ade,

Nice philosophy you have - I like it. After all, who needs logic when you've got insane blokes and XM's around?


FDV:
Don't have one so can't comment first hand. Apparently they can leak so badly that it takes forever for the car to rise. However, there's a document produced by anon for the overhaul of the said offender. You can find it here:

http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=347

Ride & Height:
These are related and point to flat spheres. The less gas there is in the spheres the more fluid needs to be pumped to fill them. This takes time for the pump to pump the additional fluid. See here for a sphere pressure testing rig if you feel a bit handy:

http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=287

Testing the spheres either by yourself or by others would be my first call. mainly because its the easiest bit of disgnosis you can do. Either that or if you're feeling flush you could just replace them all just in case !

Where in the country are you? If you're close enough I can test them for you.

It would do no harm to grease the linkage which goes from the lever in the cab to the front and rear height correctors. They are prone to rusting but wouldn't give the symptoms you describe.

Armed with a sphere removal tool from Pleaides or GSF the sphere changing is well within the realms of your average keen hobbyist. It can be done without it but its just a bit more difficult.

If you decide to have a go at any of this give us a shout first. There's a little procedure to go through to depressurise before removing spheres. Unless you follow it you could get an eyeful of fluid and your pants could turn a funny colour.

Cheers

noz

Cheers Noz ,

Location
I'm between Saffron Walden and Cambridge, picking the car up from Telford lunchtime on Friday. I was planning to dop in at the Pleaides place on the way home and let them have a look. I'm not feeling flush though, having just shelled out for the car, tax, insurance and everything else. Anything to save a few quid right now would be welcome.

Suspension/Steering feel
The thing is, not having ever driven an XM before, I've got nothing to judge the condition of the suspension against, what it should really feel like when on the move. Anyone feel like a bit of XM blank verse or something to give me an idea?

FDV - Poultry
I had a look at that FDV overhaul guide - Noz, you are verily the font of all XM knowledge! Well, I've got to say it looked a bit fiddly for me, plus I don't have anything that'll let me fabricate the tools sensibly, so I might just see what Plaeides charge for a recon one. Call me chicken, but I think that could be a job too far for me right now.

DAFT
And if any of you are driving along the M54/M6/A14 on Friday afternoon, keep an eye out for a silver XM estate with a daft pink stripe down the sides!

Watch Out?
Anything you think I should be watching out for on the way home? Esp. bearing in mind I've never driven an XM, never mind this one in particular which has lived a bit.

Thanks again,

Ade

Hi Ade,

Does your car have hydractive suspension? Easy to check, do you have a Normal/Sport sliding switch on the centre consol at the left hand side of the gear lever?

If you have, it's possible that the system has stuck in "sport" mode - this will give you a harder than normal ride. Once again, it's easy to check; whilst driving along, switch it to "sport", you should get an illuminated picture of a spring on the instrument panel and the ride comfort should deteriorate markedly.

As far as sphere changes are concerned, the front suspension spheres are easy. The rear ones are a little tricky because you have to prevent the suspension cylinders from turning, otherwise they'll tear out the hydraulic feed pipes. I'm sure Noz will give you the full SP. Of course, if you have hydractive, you have an extra sphere at both front and rear!

Please, please make sure the car is fully supported on ramps or axle stands before you slide under it - even for a quick shufti.

DerekW

This post has been edited by DerekW on June 15, 2005 08:47 pm

Hi again Ade,

Forgot to mention. If you are planning to drop in at Pleaides, the good news is that they do offer a free checkup on your hydraulics - the bad news is that they tend to expect to do the rectification work for you.

Regards, DerekW

Thanks Derek (I think I've used my quota of smilies for the week),

Hydractive?
As to if it's hydractive or not, I guess I'll find out on the day - only one more to go! It'll be mine whether it's got hydractive or not. I must admit I'm hoping it has, even though it probably makes for more things to go wrong. But like they say, you bid to buy, not to tyre kick. Unless it's "Live 8" tickets that is.
But getting this car, well, it feels almost like looking forward to Christmas when you were 8!

Pleiades
Mmm. I don't want to lead them on. Maybe Noz wouldn't mind have a quick look in any case, if he's not too far away. I rang them earlier today to see if they would mind having a look, and (as you've said they would) the nice lady did say they're happy to look at cars, apart from between 1 and 2 which is lunch hour - that's very civilised and unusual these days.
It didn't sound like an "of course we have to do the work" sort of offer, but she also didn't say"oh yes, we're happy to give a free advice to you and any of your mates and their dog, and his mates, no obligation". But I guess they do have to make a living. .

BTW, any recommendations on manuals, is the Haynes one any good, or the other one - you know, the one-man-band publisher? I've heard he produces some very good handy sized workshop guides. I'm not sure if I'm ready yet for Nozzers Monster XM Garage Hits CD!

Anyhow, thats my night owling done for today. I wonder if XM owners have a sort of brain disfunction which makes us want to be up late, like being left handed and good at maths and that kind of thing.

I'll look in again in the morning if I get a chance.

Ade

Come on, Ade, It's been over 24 hours since you picked your car up. Don't keep us in suspense, how did you get on?

Derek.

Ade

Silver XM estate with pink stripes?

You must be buying this off Kev Petford, he used to and still does visit/post on yahoo XM-L.

Sound bloke, a spade is a spade etc. If your new car was a dog he would have told you.

Mark

Sorry guys,

I've been a bit pushed with (non XM) work - hence the delay, and not on my usual PC, d/k pw hence guest login.

Yes, I've got it, complete with pink stripes. I am now a real, true to life Xm owner. I don't have to lie in the forums any more!

My daughters like the stripes so they might have to stay ( ).

And yes, it was Kev's. Bearing in mind the price, it's pretty sound - certainly no dog. I know just what's likely to be involved with a 13 y/o s/h car at this kind of money, never mind a Citroen, so had no illusions. Kev has been straight up about the car, all the paperwork was there and in order, and I got a test drive and two cups of coffee . You can see that some care has been taken, esp. with the important bits under the bonnet

It's got a few foibles, most of which Kev told me about and I hope he isn't embarrassed if I list them on the forum (in the right sections), cos I'll need a bit of a hand with fixing most of them. But on the whole, so far it's basically a sound car, and if I get a couple of good years out of it I'll be more than happy.

But I won't go on about all that in this thread.

Onto the suspension:


Plaeides
I took it in late on Friday. It was a scorching run down from Telford, (esp as the ventilation only wants to pump out hot air), and even with taking on on board water at Corley for a safety check, and one more coffee break at half way, I was just gasping when I rolled in the door.

I must admit I felt a bit in awe of the place, having heard alot about them over the years.
They've got a nice reception, a nice receptionist, free cold water, and free quotes. The ramps were all occupied so the workshop fella couldn't give it a good going over, but reckoned on the all rear spheres needing doing now.
As for the FDV, he reckoned a slight weep was nothing to really worry about, as they "never go all at once big time".

I wasn't really sure if the quoted work would fix the slow rising rear end, I know I'd be gutted if it didn't, but that's probably unrealistic - right?

Spheres Specialists?
The quotes were not as scary as I'd expected, but I did check around to see if anyone else did spheres, and there was a company in Manchester, Westroen, a spheres specialist that offers to do all 7 for about the same price as doing the back three at Plaeides. Does anyone have any experience of Westroen?
Plaeides appear to be the dogs wotnots for all things suspension, so would it be silly to even look at anyone else?

I'll post the other queries later in the appropriate forum sections, after I've let the wife have a spin in the Xm .

All the best,

Ade

H Ade,

Glad to see you're settling in with your recent acquisition.

If the rear spheres are flat (which you could ask them to prove to you once they were removed, in fact I would insist on it for peace of mind in fnothing else) then it could indeed explain the slow rising. The Series 2 Xm's have a 6+2 pump. That means that it has eight pistons but 6 feeds the steering and brake circuits and two feed the suspension circuits. (I haven't got this one totally straight in my head yet so I won't try to explain why). With only two pistons feeding the susupension circuit it takes a long time to fill it especially with flat or empty spheres. Higher gas pressure in the spheres means less fluid needed to raise the pressure to suspend the body at the right height.

As for Pleaides I can recommend them from a technical point of view. I buy all of my pipe and ends from them because I don't know who else sells the metric pipe and the appropriate ends. However, they're not cheap. They quoted me £96 +vat for exchange rear struts per strut which I thought was steep.

For common parts like spheres there's lots of people do them now at very reasonable rates. I hear that GSF get a good crit.

Cheers

noz

Cheers Noz,

I'm now seriously thinking about doing the rear spheres myself. Just how bad can it be ? Also, I've got to replace my wife's car v.soon and I'm sniffing around another one of these , so might be worth my while learning this job and getting some special tools if I'm going to keep things running well on a tight budget.
A new symptom has surfaced with the pink machine's suspension, just to keep things interesting. More probably I've only just noticed this: occasionally, the car sinks at the back while on the move. It generally happens, or at least I notice it when moving off on a concave piece of road.
There's also something up with the brakes, and maybe the steering, but I'll put those up
in separate posts.

Thanks again,

Ade

More on this one ,

The slow rising is now worse, as it's become "no-rising". Well that's not strictly true, as if you put the height control up to the higher but not highest setting, it will rise again! It does this a bit like Dracula's coffin lid, in that it eventually raises up, slowly and melodramatically (for me watching), and you can be certain that it's a sign that something is after your life-blood (or cash anyhow).

If you don't put the control to the higher setting, it does not rise. Not even a bit, no matter how long you wait.

Once up I then move the control back to it's usual position, but often it seems to stay high at the front, in fact is it possible that there is some problem in the way the hight control is connected- so that the back is one height "notch" below the front?

Re Nozzers comments on this, I think these assumed (and I had told you all this at the time )that my car was a Mark 2 - I'm now pretty certain it's not (see http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showto...st=0&#entry1251 - thanks )

I'm pretty sure that the rear spheres are completely dead and so need doing anyhow, but I'm wondering if there the power steering noise has any bearing on the slow rising situation.

Also what's should be the order of priority for me when fixing faults - spheres, the FDV/rear swing arm bearings, etc. given I've only got a limited budget at any one time.

It really does look I'll have to do this lot myself so @ll be calling on some detailed advice on how to diagnose what's going on and also how to tackle the rear set of spheres on my Series 1.5 as job number one.

I reckon Nozzers advice in

http://club-xm.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=171&hl=spheres

will get me on the right track - will the same details apply for my heap? I never get that "click" sound either, and do remember that from CX and BX cars I have known.

Cheers,

Ade.

You will probably find that the rear hieght corrector is sticking, several applications of WD40 should cure it. To find it, look at the rear anti roll bar and you will find a clamp with a rod connected to it, follow the linkage and you will find the corrector on the other end.

To remove the spheres you will need a pretty hefty strap wrench, I made one with a piece of double motorbike chain, they only screw on' hand tight' but it's amazing how much force you have to use to remove them, I have had to take a hammer and chisel to them, but you might be lucky and have them come off easily.

To identify a Mk2 look at the front grill, the chevrons will be in the centre, they also have a curved instrument housing and a 'script' looking rear badge.

Peter.N.

I nicked the idea for a sphere removal tool diy-style from someone I think at andyspares and it works great. Buy a lenght of square iron tube (about 1 meter should do it), a lenght of threaded rod and a couple of nuts to go with it (I used M10). Next you drill two holes through the square tube at one end of it with a little more than the diameter of a sphere between the holes. You now bend the rod to make half a circle with the inner diameter about equal to the outer diameter of the sphere and in such a way for it to fit through the two holes you drilled in the square tube.
Get under the car (put it at max height if doing the rear spheres, this puts alot of pressure on them and will prevent the rear cylinder from turning and thus wrecking the piping) put the threaded pre-shaped rod around the sphere, square tube attached, and tighten up the two nuts. The grip provided by the thread will prevent the tool from slipping when you excert force on the other end of the square bar (if it does keep on slipping, put some rubber between sphere and tool). Like this you'll be able to crack the joint of the sphere. Once cracked, leave it and do the other side. After this lower and depressurise the suspension. You'll now be able to undo the spheres by hand. Put new seal in and hand tighten the sphere.
It sounds alot more complicated than it is (see picture).
Failing this, a good chisel and hammer usually do the trick as well, and if you're replacing instead of regassing the damage won't matter either. Just remember to put the suspension on high!

Mark 1 / mark 2:
Mark 1 has a single spoke steering wheel, chevrons to the side and a 'flying' spoiler and has hydractive 1.
Mark 1,5 has a two spoke steering wheel, chevrons to the side and a 'flying' spoiler and has hydractive 2 (I believe)
Mark 2 has a 4 spoke steering wheel with airbag, chevrons in the middle oval rear-view mirrors, an attached spoiler (no room between rear door and spoiler) and has hydractive 2.

Have fun!