Ripoff Britain, Fuel and oil prices

Time for another moan. We must be the most gullible and easily fleeced nation on earth.

The government (is it time to take a leaf out of Labour's pre-'97 tactics and start referring to them as "this" government?) is coerced into delaying the proposed 2p/litre tax hike on fuel; within 24 hours the suppliers put the price up by 2p/litre.

Three years ago the price of veggie oil was 36 pence per litre. As soon as the word got around that you could burn it in diesel cars - with a tax contribution to the government - the price leapt smartly up to 68 - 75 pence a litre. Now the government, sorry, this government, has announce we can use up to ? litres a year without paying fuel tax on it. Lo and behold, the suppliers have now put the price up to 99p/litre.

If government lets you off the suppliers will take advantage and grab the money instead.

Apologies to overseas readers, I realise this is of no interest to you and you probably have troubles of your own.

Derek

I agree, they appear to have us by the spheres....

Steve.

Part of my work see's me dealing on the www which by it's nature is GLOBAL with
predictably the bigger players all being based in the US. I can price their goods online
and actually have them wired as files through the web so there's no physical
in-the-post item that needs to cross borders/international barriers etc etc.

That's fine until I decide I actually want to go ahead and be daft enough to order
anything...

So the item in USD$ is say 399.00 which works out to be roughly half that by
the current exchange rate, so say £200ish.

OK, I say YES PLEASE I'll have it, but to proceed with the order I have to give
my invoice details and Country.

Oh dear; this is where I 'cop it' as I have to say I reside and trade in
www.youcanripmeoff.co.uk

The price I end up being charged to have the item wired down the net?
It's a nice bit of easy accounting at their end

- they just change the $ symbol to a £....

£399



I'm sick of this country - why do we all just sit here and take it - there'd be
riots in France; Oh yeah, there regularly are.

Andrew

This post has been edited by Andmcit on April 02, 2008 11:21 pm

Come the revolution brother....

Citizen Smith?

Software/hardware seems very prone to this 1$=1£.

Steve.

[QUOTE Apologies to overseas readers, I realise this is of no interest to you and you probably have troubles of your own.]

Yep - mainly rugby and cricket.......

Not at all. The problems we face are totally universal. More so when it comes to multinational oligopolistic situations, like fuel. You will agree, Derek, when in every single Business/Economics university around the planet they teach, as if it was by divine order or something, that "business is for profit, full-stop", then businesses do what they r supposed to do. Without wanting to risk generalisations, I do understand that for "yous" (i.e. the English speaking-world) the above proposition might be taken as "for granted", but, let me tell you, it is not so at all in other cultures -or at least, it didn't used to be so-. (No, I'm not "communist" or anything, just it is *so true* that people's relations with & perceptions about "money" is so complicated-ly different among different cultures).

Anyway, problem is in politics, not in business. Politicians of the last decades are just not up to the standards, they are muppets. They are muppets for two reasons: first, because they don't have any real good alternative ideas; second, because, even if some had an occasional sparkle, they have finally chosen to succumb to mounting pressures and "just do the job". Unfortunatelly, you need a strong personal "proposal", a conviction, and then also big balls, to be someone of the size of Churchil, de Gaule, etc, someone who people remember even if they don't know why they were good or what exaclty they did. Ok, that's half the side politics.

What's the other half? The other half is in people's responsibility. Democracy cannot function otherwise but by creating alternative streams and ideas from the base of the electorate, ie the people. This is then channeled through official paths, universities, research institutes etc where it can be moulded, and then prehaps maybe tried in practice. This process although leaving the sphere of public influence at some stage, is ultimately at the end controlled by the people, who have to reject practical application of policies if they don't agree. Admittedly, my observations since 2001 when I came to study in this country, is that in the UK simple, lay people have lost any interest in public matters. The mindset of citizen seems to be history, and now our destination in life seems to be confined to do
"great shopping" and "save £10". Ah, also there's football. Why think of what politicians are planning for you without you, when you can spend all your day thinking of the tactics MU will apply to the next match with Arsenal. I cannot believe that it's been like that always in the UK, my guess is people's cognitive content has taken the downhill since after the end of the 70s, with Thatcher etc. I always continue reading and asking to try to better my understanding. It is sad though to see that the word "politics" today in the UK, to the lay mindset, as I understand it, refers to a hobby, as much as is "golf" or "fishing". Shame...it is like you have willfully surrendered the power to a club of few.

The bottomline is, life today in the UK lacks both necessary -but not sufficient- conditions: real bright individuals to add their little stone of inspiration and lead people; people's participation to create, and object to, ideas and policies. To the point there's none of these two in the UK, I'm not expecting anything better to come -or if it comes, it won't be from the people-.

You'll tell me: "politicians are all bastards and they all broke their promises since I'm alive". OK. If democracy works OK, it should take care of that also. By this I don't mean revolutions etc. But if the "mill is turning", new political powers should come to life, with pretty smooth processes, and if people are satisfied with their propositions, they should give them their vote, why not? In Greece recently this amazing mechanism was demonstrated when a little party that used to get 3-4%, was projected to get 25% in the next elections, a combined effect of some potentially interesting alternative ideas overthere, a new leader elected, and of people being terminally fed up with the incomptency of the two traditional big left and right wing parties that alternated in power for the last 25 years. If the polls stand right and the trend remains the same, we might get an alliance governement next time in Greece, which I find great news. It will be tried, and if it doens't work, life will come up with other solutions.

But all this self-regenerating process of democracy assumes that "political markets" are working close to perfection. The two forces described above *have* to be there. Let's take some proxies of people's interest. What's the participation rate in UK elections? How much time do u spend in the pub discussing common issues ("politics") as opposed to private issues (your car, football, your work, your trip to Barcelona, that fantastic gig you've been last night) ?? It seems to me that sadly in the UK/USA, people's worries are at the moment much more with markets being free and operating near the ideal theoretical "perfect competition" rather than politics being operating near "pefect competition". Thus you get New Labour and stuff, in a status which I would call "oligarchy with 4-year elections", not Democracy by any means. Thus business-lobbies have one or two steady, guaranteed partners to "cooperate" with -Labour or Torries, Torries or Labour, Labour or Torries,...-. What else could they wish for? Can you imagine of a stock market where all stocks would be dealt with by the same only 2 stockbrokers, in permanence No politician would ever allow that to happen!

Not saying in Greece or elsewhere the system yields better results, but this fundamental component -people's interest, the feel of "ownership" of politics- is still there and strong, as noted as in France and elsewhere. It's all about "mechanics" finally!

cheers
George

So it's my fault that we're ripped off at every opportunity, George?

I'm afraid that you have more faith in politicians than I. They are all, without exception, in it for what they can get for themselves. Even the supposedly great ones have feet of clay. Churchill talked the talk, but when he tried to walk the walk by interferring in military matters the result was disaster as evinced by Gallipoli and the Norwegian campaign, to name but two of a series. Thatcher was directly responsible for the Falklands war by her withdrawal of our Naval presence in the area.

We don't have a democracy, we have an elected dictatorship. Once they - ANY they -are in they can put their snouts in the trough and do what they like for the next five years. Pre-election promises (manifesto?) are ignored.

This is the reason why there is so little interest in politics in this country, many people realise that there is nothing they can do about it. We tend not to take to the barricades like the French but when some people are so incensed by what is going on that they make their voices heard the result is invariably broken heads - try the miners strike, the battle of the beanfield, the countryside alliance march in London.

I'm afraid I take the same attitude that I had in the '39 '45 war, keep my head down and hope nothing lands on me.

Although I'm prepared to accept that there's nothing I can do about the lying, cheating, self-serving bunch of wasters in Westminster I don't see why I should be ripped off by big business.

Derek

Blimey ---- you must have caught them on a good day !

Mike.

Well, that's clear: because big business is regulated by the bunch of wasters in Westminster so, as long as these are there, with your/my/our consent, big business -and medium business, and small business- will be ripping you off whenever they can -do u have any doubt?-. The problem has two culprits, Parties and big businesses, and if we accept we can't do anything for any then I don't see another solution but keep on being raped while occasionaly muttering our complaints. I think though my previous msg contained possible answers to the problem, and it didn't include any broken heads at all...

G

This post has been edited by jorgy9 on April 04, 2008 12:48 am

Anyone seen the film 'V for Vendetta'?

Almost makes you wish someone would try it with the current shower of incompetent, lying bastards who seem to have forgotten that they are elected as servants of the people, not dictators.

I do despair at the amount of people today who don't 'do' politics. I'm 25 now and I would say about 70-80% of my peers don't want to know about it, roll their eyes and yawn when the subject comes up, and would rather discuss, as mentioned in a previous post, the tactics of some football team, or who's going to win Twat Idol this year.

With this level of apathy, is it any surprise more and more people are just letting it slide, and leaving it up to someone else. Mind you, as you say Derek, a lot have also realised that there is very little they can do to enact real change. Whats that saying, if voting actually changed anything, they would make it illegal?

My daughter is 6 now, and though it may be a while off, I both dread, and am intrigued by how things will be when she grows up a bit. Perhaps people will have had enough, and some kind of 'revolt' if you like, will have occurred between now and then? Something needs to happen anyway.

Ciarán

This post has been edited by Ciaran on April 04, 2008 01:03 am

Hi Ciaran

What if they voted something else, for starters?

Would you know, the 2 ex-major parties in Greece are sh***ng on themselves at the moment due to this development I described before...They were getting 40+40% for 30 years and suddenly they are projected to get 25+25% max...Their survival is at risk...and you'll see how nicer they'll behave in the future. COMPETITION has been introduced in the arena, that's all that hapenned. Like in well-oiled markets...Nobody said they are nice people! Like big business, they just need threatening to behave!! And to think this was with just 2 routine public poles seeing the news last month! This is just one example, but it's entirely possible through established laws -so the "dictatorship" effect in this case is technically 100% due only to people's mindsets-. Funny thing is, I had had conversations with my father earlier in summer proposing him that this little party looked perhaps like having good ideas and being geniunely interested -it was obvious from the daily lives of their members-, and he treated me of mad/unserious! I wonder what he'll be saying now!! Are we married to Labour and Torries and Liberals? The next logical step I'd think, here in the UK, would be all of them to get low %s and the stakes to move elsewhere. I've been here since 2001 and follow the news daily and retrospectively, my feeling is *I will not believe it* if AGAIN Torries OR Labour get the government at the next elections. Then I'll admit this electorate is just having deep psychological problems .

Derek: *I'm sure* anybody is able, at any given moment, in any country, to distinguish a number of people that without doubt/with small doubt devote their life to politics because of their ideals and nothing else. But of course first you have to be informed on what's available...You are not likely to see them lots/at all on TV, that's for sure... At the end, if u think your vote is wasted anyway, why not waste it on somebody new?

Besides: look at Gandi's example, an excellent idea to tackle and kurb the most violent of the rulers; however, even this, requires people to "move their ass"!!

Also: look at how effectively NGOs and other groups get organised through emailing and the net, or sms.

Many paths available!

What makes me most angry is all the people not doing their bit, and the mass leaving solely in the world of Beckham and Playstation and BigBrother - I also do whatever I want in my free time but I reserve some to inform myself. I'm angry because I am trapped in a reality with them, having to constantly face the aggregate consequences of them doing nothing despite me doing more than my fair share!!

Also: don't you see that the tale "they r all the same, no point dealing with" is EXACTLY what they want you to think so you don't care so they continue doing whatever they like ...They just try to attract the necessary interest every 4 years so that we keep on voting them -but no more interest than that, it would become...incovenient! destabilising for their..."shop"!-.

Ciaran, I worry the same as you, I think it is at the least 100% healthy for people of our age, what I fear more is how it will be when the generation growing up now gets around their 50s -thanks God I'll be nearly dying or dead by then-. I see them playing in the street and all they do is "kill" each other, without even articulating some speech, just the action, perfect copies of their videogames, their minds equal to real dirt bins... I can count on top of my head at least 10 different games we used to play when I was their age, none of which involved killing, I'm sure you had the same in the UK... Anyway, don't worry, you will always have the option of moving to a nice monastery somewhere on a mountain somewhere (Metewra have quite nice views ), because what do you think monasteries were for, remote locations where the last sane people used to move to escape from the sickness of their fellow "citizens"...Perhaps I'll be joining you...Not sure they'll accept families though... and we won't have XMs...just a couple of nice cute donkeys perhaps

cheers
George

In the words of the Terminator: "it's in your nature to destroy yourselves..."

This is an interesting thread, I agree about the apathy of people regarding political choice: I think they've just given up - there's no perceiveable choice, cost of living is too high and standard of living too low but neither are so bad as to motivate anyone to action. Only the most emotive injustices brought us to the streets against the Iraq war - the largest single protest the UK has ever seen. Didn't change anything directly but we all saw B-liar's face change for the worse thereafter - he finally knew he was sprung.

I totally see where you're at Derek W, people do speak out here but get 'pelters' as we say up here for the trouble! Sadly, not from any media source - it's from their fellow citizens! It feels 'rude' to speak out in this culture. Maybe there's something more 'secure' about downing tools in France, the perceived risk must be less, what is it that we're afraid of here in the UK?

I always vote. nowadays never for the main binary pair. Sometimes I feel that the vote is wasted on any small party because instinctively I feel they will not 'win'. I'll admit to voting LibDem last time simply to ride on a feeling that change was possible - it came quite close. But not voting for a small party because it's seen as a waste is not a good enough reason! they need votes and voting for them gains their strength for the next opportunity. I never know what's on offer until a few days before the poll, noone comes to our door to meet us.

We don't have democracy I'd agree, and the only democracy worth its salt is direct democracy, closest we get to that are referendum. Who chooses the question though?

Brrrrr...you must be some sort of communist Graeme, asking for direct democracy n stuff ? brrrr......a Russian spy perhaps...at least ???



This post has been edited by jorgy9 on April 04, 2008 09:57 pm

! not quite! besides I'm not against the ownership of property by private citizens, but that's maybe because I'm quite modest in ownership anyway - mode of transport: bicycle, some musical instraments, one very nice computer and an old car - that's it - nowt else, I rent a flat.

Direct democracy in policy is what I mean, ask people what they want directly.

Direct democracy in policy is what I mean, ask people what they want directly.

Hmmm, the decision will rarely be 100% in favour, someone always will loose out.
To be honest with the system youre talking about I'd be very scared, as I suspect the majority will easily be swayed by unsubstantated media fuelled propaganda anyway.
Its bad enough as it is at present, I'd expect more rather than less knee jerk idiocy to be honest if we all had a button to push in out living room or something like that. And to be honext I wouldn't trust the current regime to implement such a ctechnically challenging system in a fair and uncorrubtible manner.

sigh