Our Citroens, Xm, C5, C15-6, Traction.

Firstly im glad you are getting on ok with it Chris and it hasnt disapointed, gota be a far better car then a Seat
Now you have got me thinking, i wonder if you could fit the C5's lecy pump to an xm.....................

D

Not here mate... big C5 fan. It's an "ordinary car" like a Focus or a Mondeo is an ordinary car, and it isn't the most attractive vehicle anyone will have clapped eyes on courtesy of Citroen's lacklustre design phase in the 90s, but it is still extraordinarily comfortable, capable and economical, particularly in diesel form. Later cars helped throw Citroen into the UK top 10 for reliability, ahead of all the bloody Germans (whom, incidentally, are last). I hope you like it!

This post has been edited by ThwartedEfforts on February 24, 2009 11:09 am

So here are some pictures, I was wanting to take some more but have not got round to it yet. One thing with C5s, they look better in the metal, never come out right on photos











As i said before, its a 52reg 2.0HDi 110 hatch, with no dual mass flywheel anymore. Its also had cruise control fitted by the citroen dealer.

I wanted this model, the earlier 2.0HDi, so i didnt get the dreaded FAP filter, which can cause so many problems.

Compared to the Xm it feels bigger! Although it is slightly shorter, im not sure but I think it might be wider.

This one has had comfort spheres fitted 12K miles ago, now i know Xms dont get along with those. However, as standard a C5 is not as soft as the Xantias, Xms etc, so with comfort spheres it is more like those, but not overly soft, it still drives nicely.

Unfortunately Citroen did not give any 2.0HDi C5s the H3+ hydractive, so mine has the H3 - meaning no sport setting. Although all C5s lower themselves at motorway speeds and get a little higher if the road gets rough at low speed. Non sport models have stiffer ARBs to cope with the lack of hydractive +.

It drives very nice, but its no Xm, pushing the Xm around in sport mode is fun and rewarding. You can push the C5 around, it grips very well although it would prefer you not to on undulating roads.

The ride is very good, despite it not having the sport hydractive it resists body roll quite well - for a softly set up car. Its an excellent cruiser, id say there is slightly less road noise than the Xm (not that there is much in that) and possibly a little more wind noise.

The suspension is very quick at self-leveling and pumping up from the low setting, which is an improvement over the Xm.

Interior comfort:
I dont think there is as much room in the C5, there is certainly a bit less legroom in the back than in the Xm, although the boot does seem slightly longer. There is a lot more headroom, the front is very spacious, although headroom in the back is a little limited due to the slope on the roof, estates will have more. The seats are comfortable, although i do wish it had a bit more lumbar support (its not adjustable on the SX). It has dual zone climate, which is a great feature, something i like in the Xm but this has the air con to go with it. There is lots of cubby holes and places to put things, more so than in the Xm.

Features:
It has some quirky features, the suspension trying to level to normal when you have parked on full lock is amusing. When i go up to it on a morning and press unlock on the key, the suspension pump cuts in and raises the car up slightly. It must settle slightly over night. I love the rain sensing wipers, ive had this on other cars but on the C5 it actually works! They only come on when needed and not do random fast wiping. The auto headlights are another nice touch.

Engine:
It has plenty of torque, performance is good too. It feels quicker than the Xm due to the torque, although i dont think it actually is that much quicker, it at all. Its certainly better on the motorways, no need to change down to gain a lot of acceleration. Im considering getting it remapped, better economy and performance. Its pretty economical, although the MPG figures do seem to vary a lot. I need to verify the readout with actual calculations, as the previous owner said it usually under reads by 4mpg. Average seems to be about 42-44mpg, on longer runs about 47ish - on the display.

Styling:
Its possibly not the worlds best looking car, although I do like it. Its quirky, not to be confused with anything else on the road. Its quite large and imposing on the road too. I do really like the design of the dash, it’s a very nice place to be, inside the C5.

Overall:
The C5 is a very capable car, its excellent on motorways, a very refined cruiser, copes well with city driving – great at soaking up the huge potholes and speed bumps around here. Its handles country driving nicely, its very economical for a car of this size, very safe and fits what I want from a car perfectly.

Wow, that’s a long read!

Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 27, 2009 11:28 pm

Good automatic wipers and lights are brilliant. Not impossible on the XM with after-market kit either.

I have to say I much prefer the look of the car next to it in the first picture - sorry

Hi chris the quirky suspension on full lock is a fault it will get worse over time untill it does it all the time we have had a few doing this
last year the local stealer (no more) fitted a new ecu hyd pump and various valves and sensors costing the customer about £2750.00 realy more than the car was worth then he came to us
the fix was quite simple it is the front anti roll bar moving around in the rubber mountings on the subframe they go weak and over time wear the arb away allowing the bar to move around even more so i would check yours as one morning you may find you have a flat battery and possibly a burnt out pump if you get under the carwith the car in normal ride height and bar the arb left and right on the drivers side where the drop link bolts on you should be able to make it do it

it only seems to be a problem with the H3 suspension cars never seen it n a H3+ car

I hope this information is of use to you

regards
Mick

rowanmoor: Yes they are a great idea. Im with you there, the C6 is a fantastic car, ive had the pleasure of driving that one, it’s a dream! Someday i will have one, but for now i like my C5!

Hi Mick, could you explain the fault a bit more please?

There is no fault on my car, it tries to correct its height when parked on full lock - yes ...

... However, it only does that for 5 or so minutes before the ECU cuts out and it then sits still, which is how they are designed to work. So this would not burn out the pump or flatten the battery.

I assume the fault you mean is where a car keeps correcting its height all the time, without cutting out to rest when parked?

Obviously, its the design of the Citroen suspension, all hydraulic Citroens will adjust their height constantly if they are left on full lock or have been on full lock - with the tyres scrubbed under at the bottom (with the engine going of course). When you drive forward on full lock, the tyres tuck in and force the front of the car up, if left like this the car wants to return to normal, but due to the fact the wheels are forcing the car up, it can't get to normal height. If you watch a Citroen trying to do this, you will see the car goes down lower than normal, the wheels straighten out a little, it then pumps back up past normal and the tyres turn in more. Its what they all do.

This can also happen on some models if you move the car forward in the high position, then stop and park, let the suspension to normal the tyres will tuck and it will try and find a normal level but due to suspension design it will want to lower and rise a bit.

The Xm does the same, as does every other Xm ive ever been in, every Xantia, every Bx etc etc.

The difference with the C5 compared to other Citroens doing this, is the C5 continues for 5 mintues (ONLY EVER THAT LONG) after the engine is turned off. To get this on other Citroens (without the electric pump) you would have to leave the engine going, but it would then go up and down trying to get to normal but because of the wheel tuck it cant.

So is the fault you mention when C5s continue to self-leval for a good while after the engine has stopped?


C5s are designed to keep their suspension active for 5 minutes after the engine has been turned off, this is to return the car to normal height when loading or unloading things/people. Non electric pump Citroens (Xms, Xantias etc) have an accumulator sphere to store pressure which overcomes this problem, the C5 doesnt so its suspension pump keeps active for around 5 minutes after turning off. It comes to life again when the car is unlocked, again for 5 minutes.

I have all of the history, reciepts etc for the car, one part the owner has written a list for the dealer to look at. This was when it was only 18months old. One of them was the suspension adjusting its height for 5 minutes when parked on lock. I asked the owner who said they do this and there was no fault found.

So no its not a fault, although i can see it could be if the suspension pump keeps active after the set 5 minutes cut off point.

To avoid the cars doing this totally, its best to drive the last few feet when parking with the wheels straight. If you do that it will not hunt for the ride height, as there is no need. Any conventional car with McPherson strusts will rise very slightly at the front and tuck the wheels too, however due to Citroens suspension it is more pronounced.

If im wrong please let me know.

On a side note, i cant quite believe the MPG of the C5, ove the last 300 miles ive got 49.3MPG. This is with me calculating the figures, not the car, that reads 5-6 MPG under! I was impressed, i knew it was doing better than the MPG readout suggested, but almost 50MPG from a car this size, its been totally mixed driving, a lot of town driving, harsh country lanes and motorway driving. Trying to keep up with a 58reg red C6 this morning on the motorway didnt help either

Thanks, Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 27, 2009 11:19 pm

Hi yes i understand the 5 minute or so cutout, the fault i refer to in its early stages starts at full lock and as the arb mountings wear it will eventually do it on partial lock this is because the lateral thrust on the arb continues to move the height corrector confusing the ecu keeping the system on Citroen say this cannot happen and it is the ecu that is faulty they show no fault codes when read by mine or citroens system but i have had 5 or 6 cases of this happening over the last 4 years or so all have been fixed by fitting new arb mounts and one case needed a new arb as well as it had worn the arb down by 3 mm where the mounts go none of these cars needed a new ecu and the system worked as it should turning itself off and only on full lock after this small relativly small job was done the milages on these cars ranged from 75000 to 160000 miles
I hope this explains it more clearly for you

regards
Mick

Ah i see what you mean, thanks Mick.

So if my car starts doing it with the wheels partially turrned or even straight then its a fault?

As it is mine only does it on full lock (mainly when i have stopped on full lock after just going over a bump as the front is even higher) which is how they should be. I would think its perfectly normal for it to try and self level within the 5 minutes on full lock (just as any hydrolic citroen does - albetit with the engine going), as the system is still active, the front of the car is too high due to turing with the wheels on full lock and it can't obtain normal height due to the wheel angle and 'tuck'.

Since mine has done this from new (i have proof its been doing it from 18 months old anyway) this is what they should do.

However i understand that if they start doing it without the wheels turned, no tucked wheels etc then it would be a fault. Then it would be hunting up and down for the normal height all the time.

Nice to know its not an ECU replacement fault and just new ARB mounts are needed, if i do get that problem. I take it they cost a lot less than an ECU?

Thanks, Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 28, 2009 12:43 am

Ok, let me get this back to Xms and stop this talk of my non-faulty C5!

I eventually got round to getting the tyres changed, so its back on 195/65/15 tyres now, looks and rides so much better for it. Tyres are almost new all round, they are swapped from its old steel wheels. Vredestein sportrac3s on the rear and Lassa Impetus on the front - to wear them out! Looks better with a chunkier tyre:







Wheels still need a bit of a refurb, but it could do with a little bit of bodywork around the rear arches to keep it at its best, that wants doing first. So thats high on the list of to do's!

Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 28, 2009 08:11 pm

Chris!

What an AMAZING write up on the C5!! I am VERY seriously considering a C5 HDi myself.. and REALLY fancy one!

I like what you have found.. however, the non adjustable luber worries me - having said that the XM seats dont have lumber in my cars, and if they have it doesn't work..

Can I ask you a DIRECT comparison C5 to XM seats are they as equally suportive? Do the C5 seats go UP high enough to give an L shape seating position??

A cannot cope with a flat seating position, as the Xantia tends to give, so your opinion on the seating would be great!

Im not interested in rear seating, I wont ever sit there..

Many thanks
Paul

Hi Paul, thanks.

I would strongly recommend the C5, every time i drive it i like it more and more!

Ok so there are reliability scares, although not many modern cars are free from those!

I did some asking around during my search for a C5, one person i know has had 4 C5s now, all have been very little trouble and he would not buy anything else. He has only had four as him and his wife have had two each.

Most taxis in Richmond are C5s, a couple of weeks ago while i was there i asked one of the C5 drivers what they thought about their car. They said they have had 7 C5s and still have 4 all being used as Taxis. One he has just put off the road with 350K which suffered very few minor issues over its life. Most they keep for 3-4 years, which is about 140-180K miles and suffer very few minor things over that time. The one he was sat in had only done 80K miles, although it had just had its first set of front brake discs, nothing more serious that that! They love them, very few issues to report and they too would not drive any other car now. The only thing they had to say was they are dissapointed with how long front tyres last, usually around 15K miles they said, which i didnt think was too bad! Front drop links are very common, ive just replaced mine, a very easy and cheap job, even using citroen parts.

I am very taken with the C5, more so than i thought i would be, i keep thinking of places to go just to drive it! To drive it feels very upmarket and classy.

I would recommend the model i have, its the 'one' to go for. The 2.0HDi 110 (and 90 actually) do not have FAP filters, which can cause big problems. Also on the 2.2 HDi they can have injector issues, which are a pain to remove and has normally to be resolved with a complete new engine head! So the 2.2HDi is not the one to get. However most injector problems are acaused by using poor fuel (tescos, Adsa etc) over the more premium Shell & BP. Mine has only ever ran on Shell.

The 2.0HDi does have the dual mass flywheel (as does every C5 HDi and most modern cars actually) I was lucky enough to find one which has been replaced with a normal solid flywheel - so no more issues there for me. However if the DMF does go, the normal clutch kit that mine has is around £200, so less than the DMF anyway.

The 2.0HDi comes in LX (90 & 110bhp), SX 110 (110) and the exclusive (110) although there are not many 2.0 exclusives around, most seem to be 2.2s.

All facelifted C5 HDis have FAP filters, the 1.6HDi 110, 2.0HDi 138 and 2.2 HDis 136, 172, they all do. Although they are improved (so im lead to believe) over the early 2.2HDis. Although its one less worry i could do without.

Thats the reliability done, so seating then...

Ive just been out into the garage to try the seating adjustment ...

I usually have my seat height set quite low, in the Xm i have to have the seat in the lowest position as im 6'2" and have limited headroom in the Xm. However i can sit comfortably in the C5 with the seat jacked right up (it does go quite high), as the roof is very high you can easily set the seat higher. I might actually try it higher! So you can set it you you sit up right and in an L shape.

The lack of lumbar support is a little odd, usually a car of this class has lumbar adjust. Ive just looked in the C5 info book i have but it doesnt mention anything about lumbar adjustment. So its either not available across the range, or it may be on the Exclusive, im not sure.

There is a good range of adjustment, the seat can be set very far forward or very backwards, there is a lot of height adjustment too. Sx models and above had seperate folding armrests for each front seat, which is a very nice feature, they dont get in the way of changing gear (in fact its perfect to have you arm on the rest while changing gear) or applying the handbrake.

I have heard a few people complain about Xantia seats, i would say the C5 is better than the Xantias, but its been a while since i was in one.

I have got used to the seating now, at first i noticed the lack of lumbar support as my pervious car had it. However i find the C5 seating very comfortable, not quite as 'lounge' like as the Xms seats and not quite as bolstered, but a very comfortable seat. I have had no problems so far.

Your best bet is to find one in a dealer (the model and trim your looking at) and see how you can adjust the seat to how you would want it.





I hope that answers some of your questions, anything else let me know?

Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 28, 2009 09:37 pm

Thanks for yur great comprehensive reply!

I know what trims are on what car, and what HDi units are in what car etc etc..

I work on these and XM's and Xantias a bit.. Ive a customer with a 2.2 hdi which the fire proof seals and plastic seats got shot, at 175k..

I manged to get 3 out of 4 out, so I ran the engine up to Temp and manged to coax it out!

I dont want a 2.2, but do want a 2.o 110bhp.. I can get it chipped up a bit too..

So is it just 3 trim levels? LX, SX and Exclusive? I realise the LX is trimmed well, but Id want alloys and all electric. hasn't the SX got elec windows all round?

Id be willing to drop a gearbox off to swap the Fly wheel if it came to it, thats not a problem..

Nice stuff.. Many thanks.

egards
Paul

Ah i didnt know that! Well if you not put of by them and you work on them im impressed

Im considering a remap for mine, although its perfectly ok as it is. Id not like to own a 90bhp C5 estate though

There is also an Exclusive SE, which has leather, sat nav, Xeons, heated seats etc. They are rare though and are not available in the 2.0HDI - as far as im aware.

The LX has front electric windows, manual air con steel wheels.

The Sx has got 4 electric windows, dual zone climate/air con, rain sensing wipers, auto headlights, alloy wheels, front seat armrests, rear sunblind, and the multicomputer - MPG readout thing.

They also have a button on the key to close the windows if you leave them open and it can also open all windows slightly to let air in on hot days or if you leave a dog in the car. Its closes the windows if it starts raining too.

The only problem with the SX is, if you get a dark coloured car (Black, blue etc) then you get a light grey interior and gold dash trim. Thankfully mine is a light coloured car (quite nice actually, somtimes it looks grey, sometimes it looks blue and others it looks lilac!) so it has the dark interior.

Exclusive adds some nasty fake wood trim, nasty seat fabric and a few other things you dont really want or need.

On the later S1 cars, there is the VTR which is similar to the Sx in spec, some have manual air con and some have the climate like the SX. They have a cheaper looking seat fabric and blue trim where mine is silver on the dash. They usually have a rear wiper though (on the hatch) and 16" wheels.

Do you know there are different models to the S1 C5? Aparently mine is a '20' model, they have a different/stronger gearbox to the early cars - mine has a lift up coller on the gearstick to go into reverse which is next to first fear, early cars are a normal reverse next to 4th. Later model 20 cars have an eco button on the climate instead of a snowflake. Supposidly the 20 models are a bit more rebust than the early cars.

Mine has had cruise control fitted, most dealers charge around £120 for this to be added, but you could probably do that if you have the computers.

So SX or VTR would be the specs to go for, but this depends on what age car you get.

It would appear i am becoming a good knowledge of C5s

Chris

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on February 28, 2009 10:15 pm

We have all realy taken a liking to my C5 over the last week or so ...

So this morning i went to look at a C5 estate, same spec as mine, the 2.0HDi 110 SX. It needs a few things doing, which have been included into the deal. Its getting a full service, including cambelt kit & water pump, new brakes, plus a new clutch kit, we even managed to get a little money off the price too!

This one is a 52reg again, 2.0HDi 110 SX ESTATE in silver with optional rear parking sensors. Its very tidy, immaculate inside, a couple of very unnoticeable light scratches outside but nothing bad, in a good colour, with nice alloys, new tyres, mudflaps and interior mats too. Taxed for 8 months and a years test, oh and a parts warranty thrown in also.

Its from a very good Citroen specialist garage, one my dad deals with due to his business.

This one will be my sisters car, to replace her 206HDi. The C5 estate will be much more practical for her job, horse gear and even to pull a horse trailer if need be - though a tow bar will be needed. Should be collecting it the a the end of this week after its had its service etc.

From 3 Citroens in the household up to 5 in 2 weeks, not too bad going!





Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on March 02, 2009 01:44 pm

Back to Xms now....

We have another! Well technically we will have another on Friday when we collect it.

Some of you might remember the very low mileage 94 M reg (early S2) Xm in silver which was listed as available on here? Its only done 31K miles, its a 2.0 16v MANUAL SX - So the same as our current one but a manual.

The need for an estate car has now gone, with the arrival of my C5 hatch and the C5 estate coming this week we are well catered for in the space department. So another Xm hatch would be very nice.

This was over 6 months ago now, my parents went to see it while they had a weekend away. My dad really liked it but they would not accept his offer for the car, i dont think the car was ever advertised in any other place than here.

Yesterday we got a phone call to say he still had it and that someone has been pestering for parts from it! Thinking its far too good to break for parts he has held onto it. We were still interested and didnt want to see it scrapped either, so today we went for another look - as its been stood since my parents saw it.

Anyway, after connecting it up to another car to jump start it it started with just a few turns and fired up. Sounded a little knocky at first but i dont think its had a service in a good while, it got quieter and reached running temp ok, suspension goes up and down but the rear spheres are knackered, however the fronts may regass - will need to test those.

Apart from a few minor scuffs on the front bumper corners and a craze on the rear n/s wheel arch its perfect. Not one sign of rust round the wheel arches or on the sills. Which im surprised at, our white hatch is showing signs of rust around its arches, something which will be done soon, however this has none at all, it looks like new. I dont think its ever had any bodywork, all looks straight and original.

In the engine bay is mint, the strut tops look like new, not a sign of rust anywhere on the chassis legs or any where else. The engine sounds smooth and came up to temperature nicely.

Everything works, the windows, electric mirrors and even the sunroof operate perfectly as does the remote locking/deadlocks and alarm The glovebox lid is still damped, seats dont even look like they have been sat in.

The interior is perfect, totally mint and new as you would expect from only doing 31K miles. The gears work nicely as does the clutch, the brakes bearly work, however it has been stood for a long time. We took it down the very very quiet country road, only about about 100 yards just to try it, everything seemed fine, very nippy engine!

It does need a good clean inside and out, new spheres, new back box, 4 new tyres (still on the original cracked michies!), brakes seeing too, bodywork scratches fixed, a very good service with some of our magic Forte and a good check over of the pipework and everything else. Oh and a new camblet kit and water pump is the first job!

With a good clean and the above jobs carried out this is going to be one minter of a car, its been a while since i have seen one so clean, bodywork wise, and the mileage is something else - far too good to be scrapped/ broken!. Looks a bit sorry for itself under 6 months of winter weather (its just been stood outside) getting to it, but it will clean up very nicely im sure. However it was garaged most of its life, up until about 7 months ago. It does need a fair amount spending, but then i really think its worth it, especially if we end up with another nice Xm.

And to think someone wanted to break it, we couldnt let that happen and just had to save it, so we got it for slgithly less tha we had originally offered. Its going to be a nice little project for me and my dad, hopefully resulting in a very nice hobby car at the end.

We have managed to get the loan of a low loading car transporter truck, so friday we are going to fetch the Xm and bring it home, where we can start getting it ready for its MOT.

Im looking forward to Friday.

Chris.

This post has been edited by Citroenmad on March 08, 2009 07:05 pm