The Age Old Tyre Debate

The discussion on this topic will of course never end as different people have different opinions. It is interesting to notice though that all we can call professional or knowledgeable, those in manufacturing and the trade, meaning the tire makers and distributors, dealers and also automobile associations as well as driving skill schools, are of the opinion that new rubber, when a new pair is fitted, belongs on the rear, irrespective of whether the vehicle is front driven or rear driven.
And why is that? Without going into the details as to what may happen on a slippery road surface at a certain speed when quick action is required to avoid an unforeseen situation like another vehicle moving suddenly into your path, I might point out that the purpose of fastening seat belts is somewhat similar to having plenty of grip on the rear. I mean, the unforeseen situation probably never materializes, nor does the need for the seat belts.
Interestingly, on the Dutch XM-NL the same subject is under discussion right now. Between the die-hard believers of tread on the front, those conditioned by years of experience in sedate town driving - but not only that kind of driving I must admit - and again the 'professionals', who have chalked up millions of miles and gone to the limits and come to their conclusions.
I have difficulty translating what someone wrote, but I think it comes to:
Quote: All cars are steered by the rear wheels and being steered by the front wheels. Unquote.

Hi Ciaran,

I think we've had this discussion before!

This is a strong recommendation for anyone who pushes the XM a bit from time to time:

BF Goodrich Profiler2

I've had:

Michelin Energy - not impressed.
Michelin Pilot Primacy - pretty good all round tyre.
Continental's equivalent of the Pilot Primacy - pretty much equivalent!
Pirelli P6000 - similar to Primacy perhaps a little better.

All of them are perfectly adequate for normal comfortable driving of course.

The BFG Profiler2 is a considerable improvement on all the others I've tried with very little compromise on comfort or noise - wears reasonably well too. The XM feels much more sure footed on these than with anything else I've tried. They're not a tyre I'd have been likely to try - but an XM I bought had them fitted and they really suit it so I've stuck with them.

If you fancy trying them - you'll probably have to get your tyre supplier to order them in for you.

Recently bought new ones (Dec 07) @ £56.12 + VAT, fitting etc each from my local indy.

Good luck with the test!

Roy

This post has been edited by mackay1 on January 30, 2008 07:55 pm

I've only had that once, on a roundabout, and totally unexpected/unjustified as speed was very low, still cannot come to terms with the reason why; this was shortly after buying the car when my suspension was messy -middle spheres not entering properly and had been obliged to put comfort spheres all round-.

On the other hand today we had gales in Scotland and I thoroughly enjoyed the arrow-like stability of the car on the motorway, no matter what gusts of wind it received. Have to remark that till a while ago I was quite dissapointed from the straight-line stability of the XM -it was annoyingly nervous-. But now my hydractive valves are working almost 100% as they should, this behaviour is just not there anymore; the opposite, complete serenity.

cheers
George

Hi beachcomber,

Don't take me wrong, there's no disagreement here; instead, as u'll have realised, I took the opportunity of your post precisely to add a comment on this whole situation with the brand's image, that, unfortunately, involves greater proportions of consumer psychology rather than of objective reality. Its more mindsets speaking, rather than technology...

In this context, there's absolutely no reason why someone cannot take a Cit and run the Ring, and also run it as fast or faster than another "sports" labelled car with comparable bhp/kg. Ok, speaking of the Ring specifically, u probably need 200+bhp to start having any fun at all, and Cit doen's have too many cars in this league. That's why the Ring is inundated with BMWs, Porche and the like. But, forgeting the Ring or other races or tracks, the reason why Cits today are called "Shitroens" in the UK and big Cits are called "grandpas' cars" in their own country France (while it will match an Elan!), is History and has no relations to the cars' performance. A number of things went wrong, which the firm ought to have managed better:

a/ its chosen strategy
b/ executing this chosen strategy
c/ competitor propaganda
d/ social norms and values changing throught the decades.

Quickly:

a/ Early on Cit chose to sell an image centered around "serenity", "modernity", "safety" (not "sportiness"), and "comfort". By the end of the 70s its brand name had common elements with the Mercedes brand for many -and of course other totally different elements-. Not a hint of "aggressiveness" or "pretenciousness" in those brands. The "nouveau rich" were not here yet...BTW it's very easy to modify a couple of things in your "boring" Cit (or any other car) to make it feel more "sporty" (engine sound, response etc). In my opinion Cit looses alot by not selling a kind of "sports" edition for each of its large barges. Many-many people demand that (don't Cit brains take some time to read a few internet fora??), and I don't think anybody of its "traditional buyers" would steer off because of that...

b/ Series of mistakes we all know and live everyday with our cars and the support available. From what I read, Cit cannot even CONTROL their dealer network in France. The XM started amazingly, at a time when the brand still had a hold on people, but it turned out to be the...Terminator of the brands image...

c/ As I see it, and nobody can change my mind on that, the German industry has slowly and with lots of hard work setup an amazing mechanism of brainwashing the public with the result of having convinced today everybody that their cars are "Uber Alles" -when in the 70s or 80s their cars were technically not really remarkable for anything-. I was lucky to grow up at the end of an era (in Greece) when Automotive mags still were focused on all aspects of performance issues, did extensive & exhaustive road tests of cars, tyres, etc, reported a multitude of test results, had various articles treating in depth technological issues, etc. In the beginning of the 90s came Auto Motor and Sport group which I could see was German-biased in all ways it can be, even though its crew were known, respected people that had fled from other independent mags. They established branches everywhere in Europe, and in every month's issue, 4 out of 5 cars on the front page would be some new Germanic model. Today automags are in my eyes not much more than a shop-window for cars. I stopped spending money on those since the early 90s, since I was not learning anything new anymore. Even the old, objective, established mags I'd been reading had to change and become marketing publications. As it goes, I've no doubt Klarksson (and the likes) takes money from BMW -directly or indirectly-, or otherwise the person is in a clinically serious mental condition (totally stuck), and certainly not a good professional. Of course aaaall that goes with the critical mass the German industry has achieved in the meanwhile.

d/ Related to the previous, the Germans have well understood -and also nurtured- the emerging trend in society where it pays much to display an "I'll eat you alive" attitude. Unfortunately Citroen and other brands (eg Jag) that did not quite play that card, found themselves "out of fashion". In combination with training an ignorant new public into all this mentality, today there's all this group of idiots driving around who put their whole car's (and their Ego) value down to whether their vehicle has "angel lights" and "fins" and I don't know what else they'll come up with...Seriously, have u noticed that many BMW drivers go in the dark with the Angel Eyes only on, so we can see them even better? I mean, how idiot can somebody be??? Result, by the end of the 90s Cit had the same problem with Merc where they couldn't sell their cars to the new generation of buyers.

Personally as I seem to belong to an older style of people I don't give much s...t about all that and go for depth when choosing my car. Also because, rarely, but still sometimes, I drive really fast (and not in the Nurburgring) I want a car that will minimise chances of me having an accident at limit situations -that's the definition of a hydropneumatic Citroen-. Equally, but above all, I want an obedient, mature car for that moment when I'll have to try to avoid an accident. All the angel eyes of the world won't do much for me then...

Again, beachcomber, all the above not related to you, just an excuse for writing!

cheers
George

Morning guys,

Thank you all for your opinions in what has turned into quite an interesting and lively discussion. I know a lot of you have many many years experience driving and dealing with cars in general, and I appreciate you all taking the time to discuss it here so that others may benefit from the knowledge.

I'm going to go and see the tyre guy this morning (small local place I goto, try and stay away from the big firms), and see what he can do with regards to some of the suggestions here. The two front tyres on this car are Dunlop (specific model name escapes me at the moment), with a fair whack of tread left, maybe 12-18 months or more. I don't like mixing tyre types, but unfortunately it was already like this when I got the car.
The rears were Mich Energy, and to be totally honest I'm not too impressed with them, but that could be due to the fact they're mixed with different front ones, I'm not sure. I just know they have a vague kind of feeling, you think they're gripping, but its hard to tell, and I don't want to find out exactly where the 'let go' point is without warning on some wet bend...

The S2 on the BF Goodrich (and yes Roy, I think we have indeed been here before, apologies! ), can slip slightly at the rear if really pushed on roundabouts and the like, but at least in it I can feel that happening and know where the limits are. The tyres on it are also much wider than the S1, 205/65 I think.

While we're on the subject, does anyone remember the official correct tyre sizes for the S1? I don't have the car to hand at the moment.

Unfortunately the test is on Wednesday, and due to a few unexpected financial hiccups, I'm not going to have the money to change all the tyres in one go as I would have liked, so it will have to be just the rears for now. I know a few of you will probably swear against mixing tyre types though!

Many thanks for all the input, there's a lot to consider!

Cheers

Ciarán

Which S1?

In my documentation I see:

Michelin 175/70 R15 MXL
Michelin 185/65 R15 MXL
Michelin 185/65 R15 MXV2
Michelin 195/60 R15 MXV2
Michelin 195/65 R15 MXV2
Michelin 205/60 R15 MXV2
Michelin 205/60 ZR R15 MXV2

Tell me which S1 and maybe I can tell you what Citroen recommended/fitted on that model originally

Thanks Jan

'90 S1 SEI with the strange slotted alloys with the plastic centre hubcap...

Cheers

Ciarán

Hi George,

as usual I read your posts with interest - one is never too old to learn!

Of course the VERY reason I have had Cits all my motoring life [ and Renaults] is because "they are what they are".

In the early days it was cutting edge quirky style allied with a supreme ability to do the job better than any [ affordable ] equivalent. Also, MOST people were scared of Citroen "complexity" and were therefore always reassuringly cheap secondhand [ my market ]. That fact hsn't changed - hence £27K's worth of XM Estate with 100K miles left in it [ at least ] for nothing money. Only the insurance to contend with, but I've always had trade policies, and in any case approaching buss pass age I'm regarded as a "good risk".

What I DON't subscribe to is the sometime "blinkered" outlook folks have on their favourite car - blinded to all the defects. It doesn't matter which marque forum you go on - they're all the same.

I'll freely admit to "non believers" that my XM has limitations and "foibles" - but IMHO LESS of each than any suitable equivalent. I bought the Volvo T5 Estate for more of a comparison than anything - as there's always the Volvo v Citroen Big Estate debate. XM wins hands down. The only minus compared to the Volvo is the outright performance, in all other respects the XM's the winner.

Hey George - talking of "arrow straight" reminded me of a seminole drive I did from Lille down to Rheims a few years back [ 13 years in fact ]. It was - 15 degrees with a wind chill factor to - 35 - I've never been so cold. There was 12" of snow and the Highway was closed.
We HAD to be in Rheims that afternoon and after trying B roads, we eventually sneaked on to the Autoroute and then proceeded to blast to Rheims averaging 80 -90 mph all the way. NO traffic, we had the road to ourselves virtually with deep virgin snow. My two French passengers were absolutely horrified and didn't say a word until we arrived at Rheims.
The XM [ saloon in this case ] fitted with the same TSW's that now adorn my estate just blasted down the road as if it was on rails.
Irresponsible? Probably - Exciting? Certainly.

Beachcomber

Aha. That should be option #4

That's weird, not normal. The rear skidding all the time gives clues as to the suspension being in loose control of the car. XMs even warn audibly when they are at their tyres limits (in the dry, that is). What's this car's suspension status? Your description of vagueness fitted very well the feeling I got from mine with comfort spheres on, when, once, I had to do a 100mls trip on B-roads rather than the usual motorway+city drive. I didn't try to go fast or anything like that, but: I literally didn't know where the car was, got the scare of my life!! Zero steering feel, the car pitched rear-to-front before each turn-in as I lifted my foot from the accelerator...It finally turned every time but I wouldn't know it till I exited the turn!Terribly sour feeling, I tell you...Mind u, I guess these spheres were not even "comfort" as they sell them, they had central orifice valves that can only be appropriate for a CX or BX -about 1.1mm-1.2mm in front instead of 0.5-0.7 for an XM-. And of course the great difference is that the CXs etc. are designed and tuned as to work well with such values, the XM not! I've never seen what they are, but I guess XM "comfort" spheres on the market must have 0.8 or 0.9mm central dampers in front, anything more would be a criminal offence -although it's looovely in the motorway-!

Mine is now working as its...mother intended it to, and I can only describe it as remaining "flat" in fast curves -it takes greater angles in slower turns, suspension remaining in "soft"-. I mean, how an Activa has to feel like?

Ciaran, how's the comfort of that one? Very soft and no probs? Or not very soft? Is it on standard spheres or other? Are they in good health pressure-wise?

cheers
George

Aha. That should be option #4

Yep that's what I m getting as well, 195/60. With a spare wheel specified as 175/70 R15 MXL:



G

Hehe this reminds the Scandinavian video somebody posted here, where 2-3 Cits drive in the snow! Of course your day was much more exciting, I'm sure!

Are those French passengers speaking to you nowadays ????

Hi Ciaran,

I think you put your finger on it when you wrote of behaviour at the breakaway point. Michelins in the past always had a name for having very high grip levels but a sudden breakaway. Most of use would, I think, prefer a tyre with a lower absolute grip level but which gave us plenty of warning that it's coming to its limit.

I remember back in the late '60s/early '70s the late lamented LJK Setright wrote a long article explaining why the then Firestone F100 tyre was the best around, not just for its high grip but also for its gentle breakaway.

The S1 uses the same tyres as the S2, 195/15/60 for the lower powers and 205/15/65 fotr the higher. However no harm will come if you fit 205/15/60 or 65 whatever the car - as long as you have the same size on the same axle.

Derek

Now, *that* was a teacher! Was reading an article of him the other day where he analysed how Honda in the NSX had given a solution to the stifness vs. smoothness dilemma by incorporating some kind of flexible mount for the front wheels lower whishbones -this allowed the wheel to have some controlled forward-backward flexibility so the driver's teeth don't...fall after a few miles -like they would on any other sports car-. Where has this depth gone nowadays? Pitty he didn't live any worthwhile pupils behind...

G

Have some article where he drives the first Activa prototype (1989ish) -will scan and post here-.

ah, the SEi rims, they'll take 205/60's just fine, as seen on my v6

Car will be more positive on the road too, though may follow the camber a little more.

rgds
Dave