2.1 v 2.5 diesel

I am now on my 3rd XM diesel estate, having previously run 3 CXs The first two, both Mk1s were, to put it mildly, unreliable, but I tolerated them because they were such nice cars. The one I have at present is a 96N which I purchased very cheaply with 244k miles on the clock and it has proved by far the most reliable. It is now approaching 284k and has only broken down on me once when the crankshaft pulley disintegrated. It is showing signs of wear however, in the form of blue smoke when cold and if accelerating hard at below turbo boost revs, this is oil not fuel smoke as it starts on all four and runs evenly. I think it is either valve guide wear or the turbo oil seals, perhaps someone can enlighten me.

My real question though is regarding fitting a later type engine. I was forunate enough to pick up a complete engine and gearbox from a smashed "P" reg (hit in the back) with only 74k on, but, it has full electronic management, mine only has 4 wires going to the pump, this one looks like a telephone exchange, I do have the ECU though. Can I fit this engine with the existing wiring loom, or if not can I transfer the mechanical pump from the old engine?

I have also been considering getting a 2.5td, can anyone tell me how they wear in comparison with the 2.1. Can I expect the same sort of mileage and are there any particular problems with them?

Thanks in anticipation

[rosspa]

QUOTE

I am now on my 3rd XM diesel estate, having previously run 3 CXs  The first two, both Mk1s were, to put it mildly, unreliable, but I tolerated them because they were such nice cars.  The one I have at present is a 96N which I purchased very cheaply with 244k miles on the clock and it has proved by far the most reliable.  It is now approaching 284k and has only broken down on me once when the crankshaft pulley disintegrated.  It is   showing signs of wear however, in the form of blue smoke when cold and if accelerating hard at below turbo boost revs, this is oil not fuel smoke as it starts on all four and runs evenly.  I think it is either valve guide wear or the turbo oil seals, perhaps someone can enlighten me. My real question though is regarding fitting a later type engine.  I was forunate enough to pick up a complete engine and gearbox from a smashed \"P\" reg (hit in the back) with only 74k on, but, it has full electronic management, mine only has 4 wires going to the pump, this one looks like a telephone exchange, I do have the ECU though. Can I fit this engine with the existing wiring loom, or if not can I transfer the mechanical pump from the old engine? I have also been considering getting a 2.5td, can anyone tell me how they wear in comparison with the 2.1. Can I expect the same sort of mileage and are there any particular problems with them? Thanks in anticipation

Peter,
I have just registered with the Club XM and although I can' really help with the main question of swopping engines. I would think that your best bet would be to use the mechanical pump with the new engine if the physical fittings are similar. I assume that you are talking about a later 2.1.
I would like to say that I have recently replaced a 170000 mile+ 2.1TD with an 'M' 2.5TD(whole vehicle, that is). I have so far covered around 4000 miles in it and have to so that I am immensly immpressed with the 2.5. It is much quicker than the 2.1 (without the sluggishness below 2000rpm). Also the clutch is far lighter, you just don't know it's a diesel from the inside.
Although the 2.5 that I have just bought was suposed to have covered only 80000ish miles, I am not totally convinced and it may well have covered much more( replacement speedometer), as it is missing it's early history.
Problems include: both LCD dispays are missing segments, Intermitent wipers go too slow, Dim-dip does not work, a strange ocassional buzzing from under the glove box (a dicky relay?), usually apparent when using the dipswitch with headlamps on. The front discs also require changing.
But the biggest worry, is that the rubber on the front suspension top turrets is disintegrating. I think that this may be affecting the steering, which seems a little vague at higher speeds.
So as you may now be aware, I would love to be able to obtain a few second-hand parts. You having mentioned about the rear damage Xm, I would appriciate knowing the whereabouts of any scrapper. especially if it is a 2.5TD.
However, if anyone else out there has any comments, tips. I would love to hear from them also.

Hope that this is of some help

[PeterN]

Rosspa

I cant remember whether or not I replied to your comments (its the age) but there have been some further developments I thought might interest you.

I have been to view one or two 2.5s and although they are a nice car, I have not been very impressed with their mechanical condition in spite of them having covered less than half the mileage of my 2.1. My other concern is accessability, looking under the bonnet and engine mine looks like a Morris Minor in comparison. Access is of major importance to me, as I cant afford Citroen (or any other garage for that matter) prices, I do all my own maintenance, so I have decided to stick with the 2.1

I still haven't changed the engine over as mine is still going strong at 288k, I did think that the gearbox had failed recently though, as after a few weeks of rumbling bearing type noise the drive suddenly failed accompanied by a pool of gearbox oil. I arrived home home on the back of an AA truck, a few days later, after a few deep breaths, I set about preparing to remove the power unit, when I looked at the diff, in preparation to remove the drive shafts, I noticed that there was some shiny metal exposed on the drivers side shaft, due, I subsequently found,to failure of the shaft centre bearing, which had allowed the shaft to slide out of the diff! Having replaced the shaft, not only does the car now drive but all the noise has dissapeared and the gearbox sounds as good as new, also the apparant clutch slip has gone, presumably this was due to the shaft intermittently loosing its grip. Strangly, this has also cured the brake judder I have had for sometime, I replaced the discs and pads to no avail, I cant see that the bearing could have been causing the problem but it did appear after I fitted a CV joint sometime ago, the only conclusion I can come to is that it had the wrong type of castellation for the ABS sensors fitted.

I am afraid that the scrap XM I mentioned has now departed, there are several at Angel Autos between Yeovil and Dorchester, but these are MK1s and only one is diesel. These I know about because I fitted an exchange steering rack a few months ago and it had the wrong size hydraulic banjo bolt, as it was apparantly for a MK1, so I had to canablise one of their cars for the correct one

PeterN

[noz]

Peter,

I can only give you my own thoughts about the 2.5TD

Despite the numerous serious faults I've had with the car I still love it. The power when it's going fine is awsome for a diesel. There's no room uner the bonnet to swing a mouse never mind a cat ! Once the engine is fixed and it is well mintained it runs as sweet as a nut.

Noit quite sure what you mean by their 'mechanical condition'. You'll find a list of problems I've had with mine elsewhere on this forum.

I can't afford Citroen repair prices either and never have been for the 20 years I've been driving Citroens. I've always done all of my own repair work building up a stock of Citroen related tools in the process. I can measure the pressure in sphere's and recharge when necessary. I can make 3.5, 4.5 and 6.5mm brake pipes too with the proper kit. Most other repairs I can do with the tools I have.

As for swapping engines, if you've psyched yourself up to do this then I would advise you to keep the electronics associated with the 2.5TD. There are many a traditional diesel mechanic who would disagree but I think the electronic parts are what make it so good. The wiring diagrams are all available if you decide to keep the electronics. It would make it so much easier if the whole donor car was still available, complete with wiring loom.

Let me know how you get on.

Cheers

noz 8)

[PeterN]

Noz

Thanks for your observations. I envy you your tool kit, the only special tool I have needed so far has been a suspension balljoint remover which I managed to borrow from my very friendly local garage, I have had no pipe failures on the XMs but several on the BX and CX and I bought replacement pipes.

The mechanical problems I was refering to were relating to what seemed like general engine wear, on one particular 2.5 I looked at, with about 130k on, had oil everywhere, it looked as though the back main bearing was leaking, as there was oil dripping from the bell housing. The head gasket was also suspect as there was a large ammount of pressure in the header tank, I didnt think that head gaskets went on the 2.5s. May be this was a particularly bad one, but it rather put me off, as did access to the timing belt, its difficult enough to change on the 2.1.

I have also been running hydropnumatic Citroens for 20 years or so. I used to do diesel conversions on all sorts of cars, using Perkins 4/108 engines with a Vauxhall overdrive gearbox in an attempt to get the revs down to a noise tolerable level, but when I drove my first CX, a 1980 2.5D I was so amazed at the performance and refinement that I was hooked, and the way it handled was just incredible, I still rate it well above the XM for pure drivability and if it wasn't for the useless heater and the fact that it needed a new head gasket every 6 months I would still be driving one now (the turbo version) but at least it was relativly easy to get the head off.

My engine swap was not for a 2.5 but an electronicaly managed 2.1, which seems to be fairly straight forward but as even at 288k it is still going well I have decided for the present if it aint broke dont fix it.

Unlike the 2 previous XMs both Mk1s this car has been very reliable, with only one breakdown in 44k miles. and no head gasket leakage or sticking hydraulic tappits.

I will keep you posted

Peter.

[mebedforduk]

I have just sold my 2.5 and brought my 2.1 out of retirement.

Should have kept the 2.5!


2.5s drive like very fast petrols, quiet, smooth, nippy but with added low down grunt. MPG good at around 40 ish


2.1s well before you drive a 2.5 they seem very good, but in straight comparison i would take the 2.5 every time.

Agreed that space under the bonnet is very limited and a pig to work on. However, they are a completly different car. If Citroen had made 2.5td the only car in the XM range they would have sold shed loads


Mark