Constantly Clicking Suspension

Hi all,
I'm looking for advice.....
I have a 92/J XM 2litre.
The suspension starts to go down when the engine stops (the rear end more than the front), I know this might seem obvious being a Citroen, but my previous XM, a 95 2l turbo, and the Xantia I had didn't used to do it.
When the engine starts the suspension comes up ok (a bit slower than I would like), but there is a regular clicking noise from the sphere at the front of the engine and what sounds like the hydraulic pump running, even when the suspension is fully up.
My guess is that there's a faulty valve in the system that is allowing the fluid to leak out of the rear suspension, and the pump is constantly trying to compensate for this. But I don't know, I'm just guessing.
The Haynes manual doesn't help (strange that as cars become more and more complex, the Haynes manuals seem to get smaller and smaller). If I take it to the local garage I know I'll get the usual "it's yer' spheres need changing mate". They relieved me of over £600 for changing the speres on the Xantia a couple of years back, and I'd swear it was no diferent when I got it back.

Anyone got any ideas...........?

Thanks

Paul.

Hi Paul,

When you say the suspension goes down, is this instant, i.e does it hiss and sink the instant you switch off, or does it deflate gradually, taking maybe 15 mins or half an hour to flatten completely?
It is quite natural for the S1s to gradually drop when not in use, but a rapid descent before your eyes can indicate a problem.

The '95 S2 and the Xantia you had may well have had the additional antisink system which would prevent it dropping any significant amount when idle.

The rapid clicking from your pressure regulator is a sign that the supply of pressure in the accumulator sphere is being constantly exhausted. You may hear the pump whirr and ssssssss as it constantly fights to replenish it. There are a few potential causes of this. The first could be that the accumulator sphere itself is shot and needs changed. This isn't difficult to do yourself and the sphere is around £20 from GSF.
However, your problem could well lie elsewhere. If the suspension is sinking rapidly its probably that as you suspect, some internal leak is draining the pressure. You can check this by checking the amount of fluid returning to the LHM reservoir via the rubber return pipes. It should be no more than a slight drop here and there at rest. If you're getting a constant stream then theres a serious leak somewhere, most likely suspect the brake valve.
The one on my S1 was changed last week and it now takes much longer to sink, and rises in about 15-20 seconds from cold in the morning, as opposed to the minute or so it used to take.

Do you ever get any heaviness of steering at low revs or when braking?

Ciarán

This post has been edited by Ciaran on November 10, 2007 12:23 am

Hi Ciaran,

Thanks for the reply.

The suspension doesn't sink down immediately, you can't see it dropping, it does it gradually, it only sinks completely if left for an hour or two. It then lifts in a few seconds when the engine is started, but the warning light stays on until the car is driven for a short distance. The whirring and hissing that you mention happens almost constantly, I think it may be worse when the car is on a slope.

There is certainly a heaviness in the steering at low revs, especially when turning round in a tight circle with the steering near full lock, the best way I can describe it is, it's like the road wheels were being forced from side to side and it can be felt through the steering wheel, a kind of juddering. The steering also makes a hissing noise when on full lock.

I didn't realise the spheres were so cheap, I might have a go at changing the accumulator. I can get a sphere removal tool from ebay for about £20.
The Haynes manual says always fit new seals, do they come with the spheres or do I have to buy them seperately?

Thanks again for the help.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

Your suspension sinking in 1-2 hours is actually quite good. S1s don't have antisink, so its perfectly normal for them to drop when not in use. Mine takes about 30-60 mins to go flat, so yours lasting 2 hours or so actually suggests your system is in decent nick.

Hows your LHM level? Those symptoms can indicate that its low.
The pulsing you feel in the steering at low revs is the pump struggling to supply enough fluid, either because its low, or possibly due to a problem with the FDV valve that feeds the rack, but the fluid level is a painless thing to check.

Regarding the sphere price, yes around £20 is the going rate from GSF and the like. Some garages will charged £35 or 40 a sphere if they supply them, however even at that price, £600 is utterly scandelous to charge for changing them all. They're relatively quick to do, and the only one that poses a problem is the rear centre sphere, due to it being obstructed by the exhaust. Even at that, to a garage with a lift, its not rocket science.

If your garage suggest sphere changes for every hydraulic problem, or have a 'Oh one of them, gotta be yer spheres innit' attitude, then it may be time to think about looking for a place that knows Citroens. You could save yourself money and worry in the future. You can't take these cars to just anyone as I'm sure you've found before

The front corner ones and the accumulator are quite easy to reach by yourself with the appropriate tool. You may need to cold chisel them to persuade them to start moving if they're very stiff, but they should unscrew relatively easily.

If topping up your fluid or changing the acc sphere doesn't help, be wary about driving the car in the long term if the accumulator is constantly clicking. It will be putting a straing on the pump, which can wear it down, and also the constant on and off pressurisation of certain pipes can cause them to fracture in obscure places. Its not going to die on the spot, but its not the kind of thing you want to let continue indefinately.

Ciarán

This post has been edited by Ciaran on November 10, 2007 01:54 pm

Hi Paul,

Ciaran has pretty much covered it.

The new seals come with the spheres, they are square section. Smear them with LHM and fit them into the recess in the major component then screw the spheres home, hand tight only. If you fit the seals to the spheres there is a chance you will trap them and end up with a leak.

Derek

Thanks Ciaran,

I'll check the level again, but if it's ok I'll fit a new sphere.

The garage that I took the Xantia to actually specialises in Citroens, that was why I used them. To be fair there were a few other bits and pieces they did to get it through the MOT. They soldered a wire to the ABS warning light, because the ABS wasn't working, they even burnt a nice little hole in the top of the facia panel for me (free of charge). The problem with the Xantia was that the car didn't sit level, the front end was high and the back end low. Their solution to change all the spheres didn't make a blind bit of diference. I won't mention the name of the company on here but if anyone in the Leeds area is considering taking their pride and joy to a Citroen specialist let me know and I'll give you a full run down of what they did (and didn't do) for my Xantia.

Paul.

Thanks for the advice Derek.

I'm almost looking forward to changing a sphere now...........................almost.....but not quite.

Thanks again.

Paul.

My car was clicking and pulsing through the steering, i changed the accumulator sphere as has been mentioned, with the accumulator tool on ebay ( works great ) and this sorted it. The sphere was from gsf and was £19.50.

Sticky, maladjusted, or disconnected height corrector. Extremely common, well known problem, especially on Xantias. Whats more you could sort it yourself in 15 minutes if you have some axle stands and a good jack.

Well it wouldn't do. Spheres, shot or not, have absolutely nothing to do with how level the car sits when the hydraulic system is up and pressurised. Height is controlled by the height correctors on each axle, as you would expect. Replacing the spheres because the car is sitting wonky is like changing all the radiators in your house because your boiler is misfiring. These guys sound like some Cit specialists!

Ciarán

P.S If you do tackle that acc sphere yourself, not wishing to tell you how to suck eggs, but in case you're unaware, make sure you depressurise the hydraulic system before starting. Please ignore me if you already know about this

This post has been edited by Ciaran on November 11, 2007 01:01 am

......It's also worth checking the hydraulic pump drive belt for tightness, that can cause heavy steering as the pump demands a lot more power when when the steering is in use.

Peter.N.

Thanks Ciaran,

I did read about depressurising the system in the Haynes manual.

I wish I'd known about this forum when I had the Xantia, It was my first Citroen and I'd heard about the crazy, complicated and dificult to repair suspension, so I thought I'd best leave it to the experts.......oops.



Thanks for the advice Peter,

I didn't think to check the drive belt........come to think of it, I've never even seen the drive belt.
You may have guessed, I don't look under the bonnet much.

Thanks again,

Paul.

Hi Ciaran

if I'm allowed, what solution did u choose for that? Don't tell me u bought a new one from Cit? And for what price? How long did the fitting take? My indy says they've never done a brake valve so, a bit worried.

cheers
George

Hi George,

The brake valve wasn't new, it was from an S2 TCT that was sitting around down there. Though I believe a new valve is about £80 or so from Cit, so expensive but not the end of the world.

Willie Johnson and his son fitted it for me, only took an hour or so, but then they work on a hell of a lot of Citroens and have done countless XMs, so they're used to this job. I don't think its too bad though.

Ciarán

Thanks Ciaran.
Hmmmm, I wish it was around £80, I'd have put a new one ages ago! I thought rather towards the £300. A good excuse to go and ask my local Cit dealer!

cheers
G

Hi George

Both XM types are shown as £95 plus vat in the 2007 GSF catalogue. will be less 10% if you are a CCC member and ask for the discount.

Regards

XMexc