Hid Conversions., Has anybody done one?

[wirdy]

I don't think anyone can complain that they've been sold 'illegal' HID kits as they all have a disclaimer for off-road fitment only, much the same as uprated halogen bulbs, or indeed those particularly huge and powerful Cibie Oscars (if anyone remembers those!).

It's buyer beware - the net is a wonderful tool when used for research, 10 minutes on google and you can scan every argument for / against retrofitted HID's.

I thought the reply from the HIDs4u man was very reasonable and straightforward.

The info on the net about the need for headlamp washers / levelling systems, etc was around at least 4 years ago because I read it all prior to fitting HID's to one of my other cars around then.

.....just don't throw away those H1 halogens....you may just need to pop then in at MOT time. That's no big problem?

[Peter.N.]

There is also an ongoing discussion on the legal aspects of these lights at 'Frenchcarforum.co.uk' which I fear was also initiated by me. And I havn't got them yet!

Peter.N.

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

Very interesting thread this. Think I will go on ebay later this week and buy another HID conversion set. In this set I will order 3000k bulbs that give a yellow light and see what difference this makes.
I have made some checks on my 2 existing HID insallations and have been advised that the beam pattern cut offs comply well with the MOT requirements. I also compared an XM with standard halogen lights in an as built state and this was borderline as the cut off was no where near as precise leading to a need to set the beam lower for MOT compliance. I then tried halogens lights with the Citroen plastic lenses removed and the cut off was very poor and borderline for an MOT fail. I also did a drive by test by sitting in a car watching the XM's approach over a vertical curve. I considered that there was no beam scatter/dazzel from the HIDs, the standard halogen XM was slightly irritating and the XM lights without the plastic lenses were horrendous as they had virtually the same effect as the drive by on full beam.
At the moment it seems to me that the only compliant course is to use standard XM factory lights. That fitting HID's, higher wattage Halogens or modifying the lights by removing the plastic lenses are all potentially non compliant with the regulations. It seems to me from a limited number of checks that in practice correctly installed HID's offer a potential safety improvement while higher wattage bulbs or removing the plastic lenses pose a overall safety risk.

Regards

XMexc

[Peter.N.]

Hi XMexc

What you say about the effect of removing the plastic bits is strange, because when I removed them from my last car, with standard bulbs of course, I found that the cut off at distance was every bit as good as with them, the only difference was that the light near the car was also cut off sharply, instead of being diffused. Maybe its something to do with the characteristics of the HID lamps?

Peter.N.

[DerekW]

Assuming your car passes the MOT, who else is likely to query the fact that you have non-compliant bulbs in compliant headlights? And if they do and you are caught out, what is the likely penalty?

Not that I'm suggesting we should break the law (which law?) but in this case I think the Eleventh Commandment overrides all others, "Thou shalt not get found out".

I'm still trying to assimilate and make sense of the mass of information that Mackay1 introduced us to.

Derek

[xmexclusive]

Hi Peter

I have been using the dark evenings and a piece of level ground facing a white painted wall to look at beam patterns and cut off's. It seems that with higher light output the more noticable the difference between the light and dark areas. What did surprise me was the thickness of the transition band between light and dark. With HID's there was no transition band at all. With standard headlamps/halogens the transition band was about 10mm wide and with halogens and no plastic lense the transition band was about 30mm wide. The cut off could be seen in all cases but in my opinion the latter one would cause a tester concern.
It was the drive-by that I found most interesting. When the dipped headlights are in use there is two parts to the illumination. The main direction focus of the lights hits the road a distance in front of the car and with HID's this can clearly be seen when driving with the distance reducing as it cuts across the carriageway to the white line in the middle of the road. There is also secondary less forcused and less intense light emmitted that illuminates a wider area and with HID's you see this light illuminating white road signs at quite a distance. I was interested to try to see if this secondary light from HID's was a serious dazzel problem for approaching motorists. I found that being approached by HID's in an XM headlight seem to be significantly less distracting than standard Halogen and that with lenses removed the intensity of the secondary light increases making the approaching XM even more distracting.
I think DerekW is right when he says that the HID has a slightly smaller point of illumination that is positioned exactly where the Halogen element would be. This make the original XM headlights work as designed. The MOT is all about ebnsuring that the primary focused part of the dipped beam does not shine at approaching motorists. Much of the frustration of night driving is from secondary and reflected light. Hence my interest in knowing what the secondary effects of my HID's were. The regulations deal with this by prescribing the maximum wattage for headlamp bulbs. That was presumably based on what was in use when the regs were written long before HID's! It would be interesting to know if Halogen bulbs were deemed illegal when they first became available. There must have been concerns about them to introduce a wattage limit or does that come from filament headlamp bulbs.

Regards

XMexc

[DerekW]

With reference to XMexclusive's point about the concerns with halogen bulbs when they were first introduced, I remember clearly that when double dipping headlamps were first introduced (1951 I think), there were major concerns about the possibility of dazzling the very occasional oncoming driver you might meet.

They replaced a system that extinguished the offside headlight and relied upon a solenoid to deflect the nearside headlight downwards with an audible clang.

At about the same time there was also discussion (and opposition) about the new fangled idea of having indicators that flashed instead of this wierd illuminated arm that poked out of the door pillar.

I was then driving a 1934 Austin 10 which was reputed to have cable brakes. It did teach you to read the road well ahead and anticipate events - something that has stood me in good stead ever since.

Sorry about that rambling discourse into history, the point I originally intended to make was that these developements tend to make a quantum leap forward, each one made against opposition. I think that in ten years time HID lights will be the accepted norm.

Derek

[Peter.N.]

Hi Derek

Dont worry about rambling, nostalga is all we have at our age, and you go back further than me! I passed my test in 1956, when the Suez crisis was on and you could drive unaccompanied on a provisional licence! My first car was a '39 Prefect and you were never quite sure which way that was going to go when you braked. 6volt electrics and about 1 candle power lights, but at least you didn't get dazzled, everyones were the same! I remember fitting 2 rear lights, as one was no longer legal.


XMexc -

Thanks for all your research. I think the introduction of HIDs may have been to get round this maximum wattage legislation. The problem with fitting 100w bulbs is that unless you fit relays they tend to burn out dip switches or anything else with the slightest resistance. The smaller centralised arc makes sense to, different make tungsten bulbs give a slight displacement of the beam probably because of variations in the filament position, so, as you say the HIDs should be better.

Peter.N.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Peter & Derek

Seems you both have the odd year or two on me still I can remember most of that which you describe. My interest in electronics comes from my youth when I spent 3 years working as an erk in Mullards development lab on the line for the worlds first line output transistor, something Peter will recognise if no one else.
I think that HID's for cars were developed because the electronics to produce high voltages became small enough and cheap enough so they started making and fitting them to new cars. The bulb technology and the knowledge that the light output was better and more efficient had been around for a while and was already in use in applications where size did not matter. These new car lights went through the approval process and must be acceptable but note that was done under EU and not UK law. I suspect that the replacing of a Halogen bulb by a HID is neither permitted nor prohibited by UK law. Now if they had been called 35W Super Halogens they would be legal under UK law. We will all just have to make up our own minds about keeping our cars legal. Just remember that those without tax and insurance will not have to worry about their HID's being spotted because they bought them from the money they saved by not having MOT's either. They will of course have the irritating 1200k purple ones in both their dip beams and their fog lights and will drive with all on all of the time.

Regards

XMexc

This post has been edited by xmexclusive on February 02, 2007 10:08 pm

[Peter.N.]

Hi XMexc

You sound as cynical as me and it gets worse as you get older. I see your reasoning as to the development of HIDs but could not a similar result be achieved simply by upping the wattage of existing lamps, I dont really think the increase in fuel consumption would be noticable, or is it a heat issue?

I cant remember the first line output transistor but I suspect it was used in the Thorn 8000 series. I know you only had to breath on make them go s/c. Do you remember the OC16, thats the first grown up transistor I saw. Single ended output for car radios with 12v HT valves, and it didn't sound half bad!

Peter.N.

[xmexclusive]

Hi Peter

Higher wattage Halogens can be purchased as they are made it is just that they are illegal to use in the UK. I suspect that when the regulations were written Halogen was the brightest light available in a motor bulb so instead of defining the light output they put the maximum wattage of bulb they would permit in road use and have now generated themselves a real problem to solve.
I do not think the M11D ever made it past the few demonstration valveless (if you discount the CRT as Mullards did) black and white sets. They were vicious little buggers (TO3 with the case live at full output volts).

Regards

XMexc

[Peter.N.]

Hi XMexc

That was the point I was trying to make, did they introduce HIDs because of the ruling on maximum wattage, or did that not apply in Europe?

All the line output transistors in colour TV were of the TO3 variety with live cases and they bit even harder, in fact would leave you with a nasty little RF burn! until the advent of TIP style cases about 20 years ago,the last I think, being the BU208, but the collecter connection still came flush with the top of the case, so you had to watch it. If electric shocks are good for rhumatism, as they used to say, why have I got arthritis?

Peter.N.

[bigjohnh]

Hi everyone,

Just spent the morning fitting my new HID lamps, Sorted out positions for the ballasts and drilled holes in the rear covers of the headlamps only to find that the new lamps are slightly larger diameter than the halogens and they won't go into the holder. OH NO!

Anyway I've had to come to work now so no time to fiddle, Luckily I've still got my Renault.

Do you think that with a little grindstone in my Dremel I will be able to relieve the metal within the headlight to get them in? It must only need about 1mm or less off the thin metal mountings.

That will teach me to buy cheapo kits off Ebay.

John

[xmexclusive]

Hi John

Mine were cheapish ebay ones. The bulbs were a very tight fit and would only go in the correct way up. If put in any other way round they jammed and could not be rotated to the correct position. I took the headlights out in the end so I could see what I was doing while I fitted them. If you do need to grind out the fitting I can find the odd scrap headlight to recover you some spare bulb holders to work on if this helps.

Regards

XMexc

[Gav]

this sounds like a common issue. Mine were tight, one tighter than the other. There is a thin metal piece in the existing lamp holder which from memory has three 'prongs' which touch the HID lamp. These just need filing very slightly. I actually took this piece out the unit so as not to drop metal particles in the lens unit. Fitting was then no probs.

Its well worth bothering. HIDs are such an improvement.