Oil In Water

I bought another 2.5TD VSX on Ebay recently knowing it had an oil in water problem. Last weekend I flushed the system out and got rid of the last of the oil with some Fairy non -biological. I'm sure Persil would have worked too but Fairy's kinder to the hands. The system cleaned up OK with no sign of oil. I have so say that the oil cooler was bypassed at this point. I reconnected the oil cooler and took the car for a short spin and looked into the header tank again. The oil was back as bad as ever.

I thought I had ruled out the oil cooler but I'm now thinking that it wasn't a fair test. I need to repeat the whole exercise and take the car out for a spin with the cooler still bypassed. The oil pressure will be greater whilst running and maybe its a tiny hole or only opens up on pressure. I hope its the oil cooler rather than the next obvious culprit - the cylinder head.

I'll try it all again next weekend and I'll let you know how I got on.

cheers

noz

Noz
Sounds like a fairy good idea to me !!!!

Persily I think it will be your Head gaskit when it gets warm opens up lets the oil into the water under presure .

Is it not blowing bubbles in rad ???
(it could be if it is with the fairy a foam making machine !!!!)

Sounds like you have just got another load of trouble coming upto Xmas could save you from doing the dishes but Fairy good for your hands.

will have to get one myself for xmas keep me out of wifes way lol

Let us know fairy soon

Hi Noz

I dont want to be pessimistic but I had a 2.1 TD with the same problem, I also tried by-passing the oil cooler with no success then in desperation changed the head gasket-that didnt cure it either! With all those bolts that the 2.5 has I wouldn't think it would dare leak.

Peter. N.

Peter,

It just got a whole lot worse.

I left the house at 5.00am this morningt o go to Inverness . I got to Blair Atholl and happened to look in my rear view mirror and saw clouds of smoke/steam (it was dark). I pulled over and in the dark I stuck my finger in the header tank to find it empty. Luckily I had a 5L container in the boot. I filled it in a stream (after smashing through the ice !) and filled the reservoir. It leaked out as fast as I could fill it. It was dark so I couldn't see a damn thing. I felt my way around the engine bay and identified a leak in the top radiator hose. I knew I was !"£$%^& and called the nice man from the RAC.

After I got home I stripped the hose out of my other 2.5 and swapped it over. I also had a close look at the factory manual and discovered that both the oil filter and the oil cooler are on a bypass circuit and not the main circuit. The oil leaves the oil pump and enters the filter first. It passes through the filter and then falls by gravity through the cooler and back to the sump.

From this I have concluded that it can't possibly be a leaky oil cooler because the oil is at atmospheric pressure when it's in contact with the water. There's no way it can force its way into the cooling system

From my various experiments today I have to conclude that the Head gasket is gone. It's the only other place the oil is in close contact with the water at high pressure.

I'll have to get the head rebuilt on the silver 2.5 before I can take the blue 2.5 off the road to do the head gasket.

I could have been doing without this.

Cheers

noz

Noz

Oh dear, well at least you can get the head off a 2.5 with considerably less effort than the 2.1 but I don't envy you the job in that temperature, its a lot warmer down here. Just had an e mail from a friend in Dingwall, says its snowing. Go to N.Scotland every year, near Wick for 17 yrs now Rogart. wish you success with your venture.

Peter.N.

Hi Noz

Sorry to here you had more probs but I thought it would be down to the gasket !!

9 out of 10 is down to that,
the pipe will have gone due to the temp and pressure with not much water in rad !!!!

the cold and antifreeze dose not help when there on the way out

You will have to make sure the head has not gone out of shape with the temp being so high and putting freezing cold water in the rad !!!

hope you get it sorted out soon !!!!

P.S fairy not good for your head gasket as it is for your hands

Update:

took the head off, skimmed, pressure tested and replaced
new head gasket, original head bolts
new valve stem seals
refaced valves
new rings
new big ends
honed bores
new injector nozzles

I filled it up with water and unsurprisingly got lots of oil out. The oil was distributed around most of the cooling system. After copious amounts of fairy washing powder I've managed to get most of the oil out. I'll replace the faulty injectors tomorrow and take it out for a run. If the head gasket hasn't fixed the oil in water problem then I'm stumped. I can't think of anywhere in the oil system where the high discharge pressure out of the pump passes through a gallery in close contact with the cooling jacket apart from at the head gasket.

I'll keep you posted on how I get on.

Cheers

noz

Hi Noz,
I am intrigued to know the outcome of your oil in the water problem.
i.e. cylinderhead gasket or oil cooler?
Same thing has just happend to my 2.5TD @ 52,000 miles.
Three months ago had both rads replaced due to corrosion and resulting major loss of coolant.
Car has driven without any problem since although I have had to top up the header tank from time to time with a small amount of coolant.This oil slick has only just appeared.
Tend to think engine may have overheated at some point causing gasket failure but I never saw the temp gauge go far above normal.
Don't have any bubbles in the header tank.
Phoned my Citroen specialist and was told more than likely,oil cooler failure.Common problem with the 2.5TD.Have you heard this?
Any thoughts appreciated.

Regards,Western Xm

[QUOTE]Phoned my Citroen specialist and was told more than likely,oil cooler failure.Common problem with the 2.5TD.Have you heard this?


Confirmed that this is the most likely cause. Until you have saved enough for a replacement, (or until we get some unseasonal weather) you can bypass this heat-exchanger without fear of damage in the short term, apparently.

Hi WesternXM,

You have a 2.5TD with only 52k on the clock? - Wow ! How lucky you are.

Yes, as techman says the oil cooler on the 2.5 is a common problem with no known way to repair the cooler. Several people have bypassed theirs with apparently no ill effect. I was lucky enough to get one from a scrapper.

One word of warning though. You need to get the oil problem sorted quickly and wash out your system with detergent. The oil attacks the vulcanising bonds in any rubber components in the cooling system. The rubber hoses goes flaccid and limp (ooh err missus) and eventually they fail. They fail at the most inopportune moment of course - a bit like a puncture at 2.00am when its pouring with rain and you've got your best tuxedo on.

All the best with your 2.5.

Cheers

noz

Hi Noz,

I'm confused with the timing of the posts on this topic.
You started in Nov 2004 with a blown head gasket.
You stuck a new head gasket on in February 2005.
In March this year, 2007, some other guys are not sure how your cylinder head job went.

It went OK, right?!
I suspect the 2.5's are better than the 2.1's, both to drive and to keep on the road?
Any thoughts...?

cheers
Rissole

Hi Russell.

Having had a reasonable few of both, I think for ease of keeping on the road I would vote for the 2.1. The biggest single plus in my opinion (although it's relative) is that generally access is better under the bonnet and it's a simpler engine. Yes, I've had head trouble on a couple of mine and that's a b*****d of a job; on the other hand, I've had smoke issues on every 2.5 I've had and gearbox troubles. Other big thing --- clutch replacement on the 2.1 is an in situ job, on the 2.5 it's engine out. I think the 2.5 is undoubtedly quicker and smoother however, so in the end it's all a trade off. For reference, I think the easiest XM of all (that I've had) to work on was a S1 2.0 petrol.

Mike.

Hi Russel

I would agree with Mike, although to be honest I have only ever had 2.1 td's. I did look at and try a 2.5 some years ago but although it had a nice light clutch and was more lively, the access to the engine was what put me off buying it. The 2.1 is difficult enough but the 2.5 looked almost impossible. The 2.1 is also avery tough engine and once going OK is very reliable. I fitted a new head gasket to mine a couple of years ago, a job which would have written it off if I had to pay for it, but I have since covered well over 30k miles virtually trouble free. They are also long lasting and much easier to get parts for, but nevertheless the 2.5s are still popular, attested to by the number of members that have them.

Peter.N.

This post has been edited by Peter.N. on March 05, 2007 03:29 pm

Hi All

This oil in water topic seems to have turned into a 2.1/2.5 which is best/easiest to keep on the road debate. From my very biased point of view a 2.1 is only any good to me as a source of spares and then only if the bodywork is the right (green) colour. I get much more enjoyment out of driving a 2.5 than I did the 2.1's and at todays prices why worry about repairability. Buy a working one, run it, when it packs up keep it for spares and buy another worker.

Now Oil in the Water.
My R reg 2.5 estate has had oil in the water for some 6 months now. I took the oil cooler out of circuit some months ago. No real problems running the engine like this though the temperature gauge does not rise quite as fast as it used to while the engine warms up. Once hot the cooling system behaves temperature wise just like it used to. I could not clear the oil totally from the coolant so decided that it must be the head gasket and not the oil cooler. That was until this week when I was going to do another coolant change to try to clear the coolant again. I started to drain down and realised I was getting clean coolant in the bowl under the car so I stopped draining and topped up the header tank and the oil came straight back. Drained a bit out, ran my finger round the inside of the header tank and found it thick with oil. So I gave it a good squirt of washing up liquid, topped it up and ran the engine for a while. I let it cool, then I clamped the overflow and with a rag round the filler opening I topped up until it overflowed and deposited all the oil on the rag. I then used a hand pump to drain off the surplus coolant. It is only a day so far but the oil has not returned.
This method was much easier than the previous coolant replacement/flush and seems to have cleared far more of the oil from the system.
I will report progress.

Regards

XMexc

Hi Russel,

As it turned out I never had a leaking head gasket. The oil in water problem was entirely down to the leaking oil cooler. Having done all of the work mentioned above the car now runs great. The heads can be successfully skimmed and refurbished. I've done both of mine now.

Cheers

noz