Auto-adaptive Gearbox

Hi Wirdy et al

Historically, not only do they have a tradition in the US of auto boxes, but they actually make them to walk the walk. Going back many years I had a Vauxhall fitted with a GM 'Powerglide' box. (2 forward speeds --- thirsty and very thirsty). Due to the decrepit nature of the column linkage, going over a serious bump one day it dropped from drive to reverse at about 35 mph. Net result -- big bang in the driveline, squeal from skinny tyres, put back into drive, carry on. try that with the so called German 'engineering' ! A good number of the 60s and 70 s UK proper quality muscle cars were fitted with the legendary Chrysler Torqueflight box, simply because it would take the power. None of this business of quietly turning down the engine output so as not to upset the 'box. I suspect that some of these ZF boxes used on the XM have been designed on a balance of probablities rather than a belt and braces approach.

Mike.

New auto box goes in tommorow

Mark

WOW!!! A perfect descision!!! Glad to hear the car is worth more then a Tin Box to you!!!

EXCELLENT!

Best wishes to many more GOOD XM miles!

Regards
citroenxm

Hi Mark

It's interesting driving with the "new" box in mine. It still makes the odd occasional clunk downshift into first when decelerating really slowly but the changes, once out of first on starting, are so smooth that you have to be watching the rev counter to catch them. That is if you haven't got the box in sport, doing 600rpm and are frightening German saloon drivers

I hope that the new box works well for you.

Cheers

Tony

I fitted a new off the pallet from a closed Citroen dealer ZF box to a Xantia 2.0i.
When it all got up and running and I ran it the first time I was very upset as I
thought the box was a duffer - I couldn't feel the changes and the revs seemed
to stay level on acceleration without dipping...

Car certainly went well...

Yep, that's what they're supposed to feel like when they work properly - doh!!

The pleasure of a smooth effortless change will be the payback for the sting of the
repair costs - just keep telling yourself it's worth it when you're bimbling along in
stop start waggon train traffic!!

Andrew

lol... Counting the hours now until I get it back.

Got car back yesterday... Superb smooth changes.

WooHoo - Woooooooo Hoooooooo!!

Andrew

Another question about the advice concerning oil changes. Which oil should you use?

My handbook says RP9736 22, but gives no manufacturers' names. I've tried searching the Total site - Citroen's recommended supplier - and found nothing.

Doing a web search produces a rat's nest with each major US manufacturer having his own spec.. Dexron is a GM spec and I read somewhere that Dexron III was specifically designed for earth moving equipment. Chrysler has specs. starting with "ATF" - there's original! Ford I think comes up with Marcon or something.

I've also read that the latest specs. can be used in place of the earlier specs, whilst elsewhere there are horror stories about later specs. upsetting gearbox performance.

There are tales of gearboxes that refused to change out of first, that clunked, that whined, that generally misbehaved. All cured by draining and refilling with the earlier/later/another spec. oil.

The more I delve into this the more I'm inclined to leave well alone.

I will sign off in the approved Times manner.

"Puzzled of Boston"

Hi Derek

According to the ZF website

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_Interoel...&doID=1&id=1431

ZF Lifeguardfluid or a list of "manufactures" fluids from different company's. All the same stuff but probably three times the price from Porsche. or simply Dexron III. See the list of alternative names at the end.

Cheers

Tony

PS. I think that sampling the oil would be a good starting point.

Thanks for the reference, isn't it odd that ZF specify two different fluids (Lifeguards 5 and 6) for different gearboxes and then lump them all together at the end of the Class 11B list?

I append a posting from the FrenchCarForum by one of the site moderators, AlanS, an Aussie who knows his stuff:

Quote: [THe long term problems with ZF boxes in particular the 4hp20 and the 4hp14 has been fluid.
The boxes have in them an extremely powerful magnet that the fluid passes over and it collects metal finings that are ferro based that may be floating around in the box. The rest passes through a filter block with a mesh around the size of that in an LHM tank which is capable of catching one micron, hence the chances of contamination is greatly reduced and usually is nothing more than a combination of what is effectively scum and old oil that floats around in there.
Where the problems have arisn has been that for reasons unknown, there has been this urban myth that all these boxes are to be topped up/filled using the Dexron series of oils which is stipulated in the ZF manual NOT to be used. They then add to the problems by then following another urban myth that Dex3 is an upgrade of Dex2 which is totally erroneous; they are about as similar as engine oil is to coolant with totally different operating characteristics including operating temps, friction modifiers etc, as a result, any BX that was supposed to be run on D2 but has had D3 in it at one of its routine services will usually drop dead around 120/150,000 klms. Xantias with this transmission in it will do the same. It wasn't until I started asking embarrassing questions a couple of years ago that this anomoly came to light, after which several Oil companies out here quietly and without any public mention, altered their websites in fear of the potential barrage of lawsuits that looked like heading their way for incorrect recommendations. Some even covered their tracks by claiming they never had that info on their websites, but a series of threads on forums showed that not to be true. This is why now, most have on the bottle advising against using in European automatics.
One thing that came out during the D2/3 debate was owners and mechanics who worked on Beemers, Mercs and Saabs all expressed amazement at how it was common for their cars to go 500,000 klms + with nothing more than small oil leaks and all claimed the boxes to be bulletproof, yet Cits and Pugs seemed limited to the mileages I've quoted above. The common response from the specialists on the other breeds was "we weren't stupid enough to put Dex111 in our boxes" and therein lies the reason. Cits that have run the correct fluid also have seen 1/2 millin klms out.
There was a manual for the ZF 4HP20 on the net a while back but I think it was on a short term "download" site, but if I can find it, I'll post the link.
The fluid it uses carries an "Esso" part number and if I remember correctly is a yellow colour and not a red.

from the Xantia service manual:

Transmission capacity 7.7 - 8.3 litres
Draining capacity between 2.7 and 3 litres
Exclusive oil ESSO LT 71141
Draining interval lubricated for life
Top-up interval 60 000 km
Transmission lubrication pressurised
Final drive lubrication oil splash
Weight 88 kg with oil and electronics
Torque capacity 330 mN at 3500 rpm

The manual shows a dipstick (carefully hidden) and a drain plug very dicreetly hidden unerneath.

Constant reference is made of it being a "sealed for life" operation, but it also goes into detail talking about what is needed to change and top up the oil, so I do believe the dipstick and drain are there if only you know where to look.
Filling/topping up is achieved by filling through the dipstick hole (very much like the old CX did.


Alan S
_________________
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!] Endquote.

I think I/ll give Dexron a miss.

Derek

Here is another thread on the auto boxes.

http://alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-164-and-16...ission-oil.html

It is indeed hard to believe that the oil in the box would last more than 50k kms. Here in Japan I have heard from a dealer some customers have the oil changed every 30k, making sure they get the correct oil, Esso LT 71141. My XM has no filler tube, nor a dipstick. I think the transmissions were sealed because so many failures were due to someone filling it with the wrong fluid.

Jan
Hiroshima
XM 3.0 V6 24v Exclusive Auto 2000 (37,000 km)

Hi Jan-hendrik, good to hear from you.

It looks as if Alfa owners are as confused as XM owners!

Current mileage 69,000, I've decided to leave well alone. If it all goes belly up I'll don sackcloth and ashes and let you all know.

Derek

Derek, is that miles or kilometres?

Jan

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=1][COLOR=blue]
I just love reading all this stuff about gearbox problems on 24V XMs - it makes me realise that I am not alone! (I felt pretty alone crawling through Colchester in the morning rush-hour with a 'box on its absolutely last legs desperate to get to the Citroen dealer before it expired.)

My gearbox "went" at 77,000 miles just before Christmas. I had it rebuilt by Automatic technical Services on Mersea island (Essex) for £1700. Merry Christmas. The lad there told me that it would "last me for another 80,000". That sounds a bit like a limited-life component, doesn't it?

My W reg XM (used to be V 8 BSL in Leicester - a Bristol Street Motors car) is good now - I think - well, at least it looks really good.